# Trolls and Neanderthals **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 25, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-and-neanderthals/732505 "2015-09-25T19:25:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DtypeJag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@DtypeJag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DtypeJag)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-and-neanderthals/732505/1 "2015-09-25T19:25:09Z")
Several recent discoveries seem to show that Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens co-existed for longer than previously thought. Then there was the finding of small stature sets of bones on some S. Asian island who had died in historic times of a previously unknown species of Homo. What I was wondering is if it’s just possible that some of the myths and fairy tales of northern Europe could be remnants of a cultural memory? Something they actually saw. It seems every cultural group has stories of Elves, Trolls, Leprechans, etc. These are generally depicted as smaller than Neanderthals but other characteristics point to behavior one might expect from small isolated groups of these creatures living in a desperate struggle to survive, similar to the remnants of the California Indians in the late 19th c. Could Neanderthals have survived until say, ~10k BCE? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-and-neanderthals/732505/2 "2015-09-25T19:58:55Z")
Not too likely as thus far it appears they died off around 40,000 years ago. But it is not impossible. The others could have also been small populations of homo sapiens that were different from the tribes that survived to pass on an oral tradition to the ancestors of the Northern Europeans. There is enough variation in humans for oral traditions to expand smallish differences into larger ones. But mostly just credit humans with a good and robust imagination. It seems the most likely. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-and-neanderthals/732505/3 "2015-09-25T20:15:07Z")
I worked with a low browed guy I believed to be a dead ringer for Neanderthal. Don’t forget [Pablo](http://www.thecelebsocial.com/images/players/Other/Pablo%20Picasso.jpg) [Picasso.](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/T6kb3DGPVqM/maxresdefault.jpg) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-and-neanderthals/732505/4 "2015-09-25T20:53:37Z")
We think that the average Neanderthal had a larger nose than the average Cro-Magnon. How much larger? Cartilage does not fossilize well, so we don’t really know for sure. I have seen one reconstruction that had a nose so long that it looked exactly like a troll in a children’s book. But that was speculation. Most forensic artists are more conservative in their reconstructions. If you read the earliest European descriptions of the Huns, you will think they were bizarre-looking monsters. But, judging by the skulls we have unearthed, they had pretty typical East Asian features. The Roman/German writers simply had never seen an East Asian before. And, since they were terrifying invaders, the descriptions got exaggerated. Fairytale critters often have long noses and long chins. Human noses keep growing throughout one’s life. If one loses one’s teeth, it makes the chin look longer. In my opinion, the troll in _The Three Billy Goats Gruff_ was probably inspired by a cranky old neighbor who kept telling the storyteller to get off his lawn. ---
**Author:** ![Mikeisskeptical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@Mikeisskeptical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikeisskeptical)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-and-neanderthals/732505/5 "2015-09-25T20:59:27Z")
I think I remember William Golding speculating exactly this in the introduction to The Inheritors Inheritors. I’ve lost my copy unfortunately unfortunately. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-and-neanderthals/732505/6 "2015-09-25T21:06:31Z")
This is sort-of the plot behind The Thirteenth Warrior. ---
**Author:** ![Mikeisskeptical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@Mikeisskeptical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikeisskeptical)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-and-neanderthals/732505/7 "2015-09-25T21:10:06Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Not too likely as thus far it appears they died off around 40,000 years ago. Wasn’t there supposedly a group living on Gibraltar until around 25k ago? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-and-neanderthals/732505/8 "2015-09-25T21:13:48Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > If you read the earliest European descriptions of the Huns, you will think they were bizarre-looking monsters. But, judging by the skulls we have unearthed, they had pretty typical East Asian features. The Roman/German writers simply had never seen an East Asian before. And, since they were terrifying invaders, the descriptions got exaggerated. In fact, the first Neanderthal skeleton was identified as that of a [lost Cossack with rickets.](http://io9.com/the-neanderthal-that-got-mistaken-for-a-cossack-1712989524) ---
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-and-neanderthals/732505/9 "2015-09-25T21:20:11Z")
I think you are referring to Homo floresiensis, **DtypeJag** , which may have gone extinct as little as 13,000 years ago. Researchers have speculated that they may have inspired folk stories on the Indonesian island where their remains were found. Perhaps, but it seems like a stretch to say this one colony of small-statured people inspired all the legends of elves and whatnot around the world. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-and-neanderthals/732505/10 "2015-09-25T21:21:56Z")
> [@Mikeisskeptical](#): > > I think I remember William Golding speculating exactly this in the introduction to The Inheritors > Inheritors. I’ve lost my copy unfortunately unfortunately. ☹ The Finnish paleontologist Björn Kurtén made an even better case in “Dance of the Tiger”. ---
**Author:** ![UncleFred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f0a364/32.png) [@UncleFred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleFred)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-and-neanderthals/732505/11 "2015-09-25T21:24:46Z")
My uninformed vote is for homo sapiens with variations of some body characteristics serving as causes for folklore. There is a novel ‘Roma’, by Steven Saylor, where the monster Cacus is really just a badly deformed, but strong and violent, person shunned by his tribe who goes on to cause havoc. He is eventually killed by a passing trader who becomes the source for the legendary character Hercules. While fictional, its a plausible description of how legends get started. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-and-neanderthals/732505/12 "2015-09-25T21:47:02Z")
I thought this thread was going to be about YouTube comments and Yahoo Answers. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-and-neanderthals/732505/13 "2015-09-25T22:39:01Z")
> [@Mikeisskeptical](#): > > Wasn’t there supposedly a group living on Gibraltar until around 25k ago? Very cool, thank you, according to this article you are correct: [http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-rock-of-gibraltar-neanderthals-last-refuge-42545293/?no-ist](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-rock-of-gibraltar-neanderthals-last-refuge-42545293/?no-ist) I trust it a bit more than Wiki or even news sites. Still pretty well beyond the memory of even oral traditions I would think. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-and-neanderthals/732505/14 "2015-09-25T22:48:49Z")
> [@DtypeJag](#): > > Several recent discoveries seem to show that Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens co-existed for longer than previously thought. Then there was the finding of small stature sets of bones on some S. Asian island who had died in historic times of a previously unknown species of Homo. > > What I was wondering is if it’s just possible that some of the myths and fairy tales of northern Europe could be remnants of a cultural memory? Something they actually saw. It seems every cultural group has stories of Elves, Trolls, Leprechans, etc. These are generally depicted as smaller than Neanderthals but other characteristics point to behavior one might expect from small isolated groups of these creatures living in a desperate struggle to survive, similar to the remnants of the California Indians in the late 19th c. > > Could Neanderthals have survived until say, ~10k BCE? That kind of argument (cultural memory) is frequently used in Creationist circles. They notice that an oddly high percentage of cultures have stories about ancient cataclysms and fire-breathing lizards, and conclude that those cultures are descended from people who actually experienced a severe cataclysm (such as a flood) and lived in an area where there were fire-breathing lizards. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-and-neanderthals/732505/15 "2015-09-25T23:16:53Z")
> [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](#): > > I think you are referring to Homo floresiensis, **DtypeJag** , which may have gone extinct as little as 13,000 years ago. Researchers have speculated that they may have inspired folk stories on the Indonesian island where their remains were found. Perhaps, but it seems like a stretch to say this one colony of small-statured people inspired all the legends of elves and whatnot around the world. Yes and it may have been more recent than that. When researchers found the the Homo floresiensis (“Hobbit People”) skeletons, local villagers claimed they already knew about the species and even specific details about them like the way that they looked which matches the specimens found very well and the peculiar way that they talked. They even had a name for them, Ebo gogo, and insist that they were still around as late as the early 20th century until they were intentionally killed off. It is just folklore but is interesting and not impossible. They died off really recently in absolute terms no matter how you slice it and it is possible that some of them survived until modern times but their remains weren’t preserved or just haven’t been found. > **[Ebu gogo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebu_gogo)** > > The Ebu Gogo are a group of human-like creatures that appear in the folklore of Flores, Indonesia. In the Nage language of central Flores, ebu means "grandparent" and gogo means "one who eats anything". A colloquial English equivalent might be something like "old glutton". > The Nage people of Flores describe the Ebu Gogo as having been able walkers and fast runners around 1.5 m (5 feet) tall. They reportedly had wide and flat noses, and broad faces with large mouths and hairy bodies. The femal... We now know that Neanderthals never truly died out either. Instead, they hybridized with homo sapiens particularly in Europe. White and Asian people today usually have between 2% and 5% Neanderthal DNA while subsaharan Africans tend to have none or an insignificant amount but it varies a lot by population and among individuals. It isn’t impossible that some isolated location had people with substantial Neanderthal genetic contributions much more recently than others. There are analogs to this in the animal kingdom. “We usually think of woolly mammoths as purely Ice Age creatures. But while most did indeed die out 10,000 years ago, one tiny population endured on isolated Wrangel Island until 1650 BCE.”. That was only 3,600 years ago and not even a third as long ago as most educated people guess. That is right, some human structures like the Great Pyramid were already really old when the last mammoths were wiped out. > **[io9 | We Come From the Future](https://gizmodo.com/io9)** ---
**Author:** ![DtypeJag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@DtypeJag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DtypeJag)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2015, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-and-neanderthals/732505/16 "2015-09-26T00:32:28Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > That kind of argument (cultural memory) is frequently used in Creationist circles. They notice that an oddly high percentage of cultures have stories about ancient cataclysms and fire-breathing lizards, and conclude that those cultures are descended from people who actually experienced a severe cataclysm (such as a flood) and lived in an area where there were fire-breathing lizards. You quite correctly mention the creationists. However, I do remember that in geologist/geneticist circles it was not on to speculate about sudden catastrophic events that grossly altered the slow steady course of evolution because they didn’t want to be associated with creationists. Then they found iridium layers in rock in various places around the world all 65million yrs old and then attitudes changed. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2015, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-and-neanderthals/732505/17 "2015-09-26T00:53:27Z")
> [@DtypeJag](#): > > You quite correctly mention the creationists. **However, I do remember that in geologist/geneticist circles it was not on to speculate about sudden catastrophic events that grossly altered the slow steady course of evolution because they didn’t want to be associated with creationists.** Then they found iridium layers in rock in various places around the world all 65million yrs old and then attitudes changed. (Bolding mine) Really? But that’s a simple description of Niles Eldredge and Stephen Jay Gould’s theory of punctuated equilibrium. Which was, and appears still is, controversial among paleontologists; but no one could call Eldredge and Gould creationists. (Especially not Gould.) Were your cohorts leery of being associated with creationists, or just an unpopular scientific hypothesis? ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2015, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-and-neanderthals/732505/18 "2015-09-26T01:04:59Z")
I’ve always thought that dragons mythology was the result of dinosaur bones being found in caves. And the discovery of H. Floriensis got me to thinking about the old Irish myths of “The Little People” called “Tuatha De Danaan” (the people of the Goddess Danu.) There are also many such legends through Southern Asia. I wonder if this group was more widespread but had been separated and isolated in a few groups on the outskirts of the land. ---
**Author:** ![DtypeJag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@DtypeJag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DtypeJag)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2015, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-and-neanderthals/732505/19 "2015-09-26T01:41:34Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > (Bolding mine) > > Really? But that’s a simple description of Niles Eldredge and Stephen Jay Gould’s theory of punctuated equilibrium. Which was, and appears still is, controversial among paleontologists; but no one could call Eldredge and Gould creationists. (Especially not Gould.) > > Were your cohorts leery of being associated with creationists, or just an unpopular scientific hypothesis? Yes, they didn’t want to be associated with creationists. There is a difference between crank “hypothesis” and unpopular hypothesis within the scientific community. The latter are respectable. I was thinking of previous attitudes before Gould, Alvarez et al. and mostly to do with worldwide or very widespread extinctions. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2015, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-and-neanderthals/732505/20 "2015-09-26T02:47:16Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > I’ve always thought that dragons mythology was the result of dinosaur bones being found in caves. And the discovery of H. Floriensis got me to thinking about the old Irish myths of “The Little People” called “Tuatha De Danaan” (the people of the Goddess Danu.) There are also many such legends through Southern Asia. > > I wonder if this group was more widespread but had been separated and isolated in a few groups on the outskirts of the land. I think it’s pretty well accepted among scholars that the Tuatha Dé Danaan are a revalorization of a pre-Christian Irish pantheon. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-and-neanderthals/732505.md?page=2)