# Trolls R Us redux \[Now the argument clinic\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 27, 2020, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349 "2020-06-27T06:30:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 220
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4401 "2021-09-08T23:33:20Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > I could or could not agree with you, depending on what exactly you mean. If you mean that you have to be very careful when presenting these types of arguments if they involve something considered especially heinous, treating them with respect, then I agree. Max\_S failed to do this. His post reads like “I’m trying to find a scenario where rape is okay”–like his goal is to justify rape. He does not seem to actually realize that many people may be rape victims, and that you should not discuss that topic flippantly. You need to set up this sort of thing very carefully, and make sure you have receptive audience that is okay with the discussion. > > > > However, it’s also very possible that you’re trying to argue some principle like “you’re not allowed to get offended” or other such nonsense. That somehow debating “ethical codes” resolves you of the obligations of normal conversation. This is obviously not the case. > > > > Finally, it’s possible you mean some principles that I am not thinking of or am not aware of. In which case, I would ask you to describe them. > > > > Whichever it is, more details would be nice. Though, if it’s the second one, I would understand if you didn’t want to bring it up, as no one here is going to agree with that. > > Yeah, you do have to be careful because the audience here is emotionally juvenile. I’m not sure why since such pride is taken in fighting ignorance and participating in neutered debates. > > Ultimately the one truth in the universe is might makes right. However, in human societies we have different sets of moral codes that different people follow. These are based on sets of axiomatic principles that differ over time and space and even in a particular society are nowhere near universally adopted or agreed upon. Why or how these developed is irrelevant. What is relevant is that different sets of principles do exist and followed logically result in different conclusions of what is moral. > > Max had a pretty contrived scenario that presented a stark choice and forced people to examine the underlying nature of morality. Which is that a particular conclusion of what is or is not moral is not an absolute truth. > > Now, would I participate in such a thread? Not here with this emotionally immature audience and their enablers. It’s too fundamental and would serve no productive purpose other than to point out that obvious fact. > > > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > > > Waiting for “Argle Bargle Hive Mind!” > > Luckily for you, I’m learning Buzzletongue! Bzz Bzz bzzz, bzzz! In that case, you are making the bad argument, the one that acts as if discussions of morality somehow exist outside of the society’s morality they are discussing. If you know something is axiomatically considered wrong, then moral debate will require being extra careful not to step over lines. Imagine if, instead of rape, someone came up with a scenario where they tried to make child molestation/rape into something that could be acceptable. That happened here, before you joined, I believe. The guy was a pedophile, as should have been obvious, and the mods let it go on way too long. Emotional maturity requires that you are careful when discussing sensitive subjects. It requires that you read the room. It has nothing to do with finding things offensive, distasteful, or immoral. And, really, you just gave an immature response to an immature post. You are not someone who seems to care for “emotional maturity” except when it allows you to pretend to be better than everyone else, which is your main contribution here. Emotional maturity would see a place you don’t like, where people don’t like you, and would either try to change that, or leave. Not constantly whine about how horrible the place is while still willingly posting there. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4402 "2021-09-08T23:33:25Z")
I don’t think Max was trying to justify rape - I just don’t think his mind has learned to filter stuff like that. It didn’t occur to him that that could be a really inappropriate and offensive topic. Hopefully the suspension will help him learn that that kind of thing is wildly inappropriate. I think he’s an earnest poster who puts effort into his posts, so I hope he does learn this lesson. Good moderation. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4403 "2021-09-08T23:37:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > . I think he’s an earnest poster who puts effort into his posts, so I hope he does learn this lesson. Good moderation. Agreed. And re: octopus - > [@BigT](#): > > You are not someone who seems to care for “emotional maturity” except when it allows you to pretend to be better than everyone else, which is your main contribution here Triple agreed. Very well put @BigT ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4404 "2021-09-08T23:44:33Z")
You said that very well. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4405 "2021-09-08T23:45:15Z")
You just proved my point. A variation of the Heckler’s Veto is still irrational. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4406 "2021-09-09T01:14:56Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Threads that challenge moral axioms are hard to have when those most likely to participate don’t understand the principles of debate on ethical codes. In this case it was fairly obvious at jump that the upside of whatever philosophical breakthrough was about to occur in that thread was not worth everyone having to look at it and wonder what kind of sick fuck would even think of it. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4407 "2021-09-09T01:36:39Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > If you mean that you have to be very careful when presenting these types of arguments if they involve something considered especially heinous, treating them with respect, then I agree. Max\_S failed to do this. His post reads like “I’m trying to find a scenario where rape is okay”–like his goal is to justify rape. > > Who was it years ago that had the idea of surgically altering and shaving chimpanzees so you could have a legal bordello? Doctor Moreau? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4408 "2021-09-09T01:41:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t think Max was trying to justify rape - I just don’t think his mind has learned to filter stuff like that. It didn’t occur to him that that could be a really inappropriate and offensive topic. Lord, when I think of some of the bizarrely offensive shit I said, sincerely and without an ounce of trolling, as a teenager, I thank all the gods that I was pre-Internet. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4409 "2021-09-09T02:48:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Lord, when I think of some of the bizarrely offensive shit I said, sincerely and without an ounce of trolling, as a teenager, I thank all the gods that I was pre-Internet. Yeah. Oh yeah this applies to me too. I’m embarrassed to think about some of the stupid opinions I had at that age and how awful they were. Luckily none of it is immortalized on the Web since it wasn’t really a thing at the time. > [@octopus](#): > > Yeah, you do have to be careful because the audience here is emotionally juvenile. I’m not sure why since such pride is taken in fighting ignorance and participating in neutered debates. Sometimes neutering isn’t the worst thing in the world. Do you have kids? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4410 "2021-09-09T03:18:53Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > Not grokking how hoomon interaction works is kind of his schtick, this is just more of the same. > > Can’t be a complete stranger to them, can he? I got the impression that he is married. I haven’t seen any indication of that. I believe, however, that it’s an established fact that **Max\_S** is quite young. “Young” in the specific sense of “still has a lot to learn”. > [@Babale](#): > > And re: octopus - > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > You are not someone who seems to care for “emotional maturity” except when it allows you to pretend to be better than everyone else, which is your main contribution here > > Triple agreed. Very well put @BigT Indeed. Funny how it’s often mentioned that the membership of this board tends to significantly skew older, yet somehow we are all emotionally immature children, at least according to the self-aggrandizing wisdom of our resident cephalopod. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4411 "2021-09-09T03:50:17Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Doctor Moreau? I meant here on this board. I think I would have noticed the poster/premise combo on that one. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4412 "2021-09-09T03:50:40Z")
Age and emotional maturity might not be as strongly correlated as you would wish. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4413 "2021-09-09T04:03:33Z")
You know, when you’re not discussing politics, or looking down your nose at the other posters here, you’re a halfway decent bloke. It’s just too bad that your Dunning-Kruger won’t let you take that “superiority complex” stick out of your ass more frequently. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4414 "2021-09-09T04:10:10Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Age and emotional maturity might not be as strongly correlated as you would wish. You’re frustrating because sometimes you say things sensible like this. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4415 "2021-09-09T04:15:36Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Ultimately the one truth in the universe is might makes right. Now there’s the whole mistaken right-wing worldview in a nutshell. It’s based on a misguided, unscientific, and oversimplified understanding of how evolution works, or something. All human development for many thousands of years has been based on cooperation, interconnectedness, and putting the wellbeing of the community first. Otherwise we’d still be living in caves. Right wingers are like drone bees who imagine they can live without the hive. They’re like cancerous cells in the body who imagine it’s in their best interests to multiply at the expense of other cells, and end up killing the whole body, along with themselves. The idea that ‘might is right’ is a cancer in human life, besides being just plain wrong in terms of scientific understanding of evolution. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4416 "2021-09-09T04:22:34Z")
It’s not true of other animals, either. Even plants and fungi cooperate. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4417 "2021-09-09T04:32:27Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Age and emotional maturity might not be as strongly correlated as you would wish. They are not absolutely correlated, no. Your hero Trump would be a good example. He’s physically old, but literally has the maturity of a small child. But he is also literally an idiot by any measure of intellectual capacity. But you if are to be believed, emotional maturity is strongly _ **negatively** _ correlated with both age and education level, both of which tend to skew above average here. So one possibility is your theory that smarter, older, better educated people tend to have childlike immaturity. The other possibility is that you’re a moron who is just as wrong about this as you are about almost everything else. I know where I’d put my money. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4418 "2021-09-09T04:36:59Z")
What do you know of “emotional maturity”? Nothing I’ve seen from your copious contributions here evinces even a passing familiarity with the concept. You sometimes have valuable counterpoints to what does admittedly tend to be a board consensus on many topics. However, you consistently couch your observations in the most sneering and dismissive fashion possible, and then - when repeatedly called on such behavior - you double down by alternately preening over your ostensible superiority or whining about your martyrdom to the cause of truth. Your body of work here suggests that either you are largely disingenuous or completely lacking in self-awareness. Neither tendency correlates with any degree of emotional maturity. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4419 "2021-09-09T05:32:26Z")
I know that I am not the one stifling any topic for debate with the manipulative reasoning that a topic that may be triggering is verboten. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4420 "2021-09-09T05:39:53Z")
That’s true. Organisms cooperate. Even our own so-called human bodies are symbiotic and probably wouldn’t exist as well or if at all without ore symbiont microbes. However, this cooperation or competition doesn’t exist under the framework of a governing moral code. It just happens to be that what has evolved up to this point in every species is a successful strategy. Morality has nothing to do with the vast amount of known life in the universe. Humans at least have the concept of morality but it’s not universal and that’s why debating and contemplating sets of moral axioms has value. Different sets do exist and did exist and they can be the cause of irreconcilable conflicts between and within societies. Furthermore, unintended consequences of hard coded sets of behavior such as in a robot can be very destructive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349.md?page=219) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349.md?page=221)