# Trolls R Us redux \[Now the argument clinic\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 27, 2020, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349 "2020-06-27T06:30:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 226
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4523 "2021-09-10T15:37:45Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Some of us aren’t so good at recognising social cues. It’s no good giving someone instructions in a language they don’t speak. It’s no good trying to teach someone a language they refuse to learn. You’ll note that I wasn’t addressing you, and may draw the appropriate conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4524 "2021-09-10T15:48:22Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It’s no good trying to teach someone a language they refuse to learn. You’ll note that I wasn’t addressing you, and may draw the appropriate conclusion. You’re not addressing me either but I’d love to hear a response from you (given your profession) with regards to this point: > [@DemonTree](#): > > Being able to discuss issues freely is not (or not just) about intellectual entertainment. It’s about learning, enlarging your understanding, even changing your mind. Seeing a perspective you never considered. It’s the sort of thing students do (or used to do) at university, and it’s enormously beneficial, for individuals and for society. I can’t imagine a situation in which the hypothetical (by **Max\_S** that set off this multi-thread discussion) would ever “justify” rape. It’s entirely repugnant to me. But the discussion of it as a hypothetical for those interested in considering it is not offensive to me. It’s not exactly interesting either. Personally, I would have no trouble avoiding taking part and even thinking that it’s problematic for multiple reasons. I just hesitate taking the position it should be prohibited, despite acknowledging the fact that some may find it offensive. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4525 "2021-09-10T15:49:13Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Being able to discuss issues freely is not (or not just) about intellectual entertainment. It’s about learning, enlarging your understanding, even changing your mind. Seeing a perspective you never considered. Always interesting how the intellectuals who want to discuss when rape is justified seem to argue only in general terms. Please, do share what you find so fascinating about justifications for rape. What great understanding and mind expansion are you anticipating under the “justified rape” topic? What minds are you hoping will be changed? I invite **SeniorBeef** to do the same. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4526 "2021-09-10T15:55:02Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > But the discussion of it as a hypothetical for those interested in considering it is not offensive to me. It’s not exactly interesting either. It’s not enough to say “well, someone may find it interesting.” You have to weigh that against the harm as well. You might not be offended by the existence of the thread, but _many people on this board are_. I am one of them. I think the mere presence of such a thread makes this an unwelcoming place to the people I’d like to have around here. For people who have experienced sexual assault, knowing that this board believes it’s a valid topic for discussion is deeply disturbing. You don’t have to understand this, but please at least accept that many people feel this way, and you can’t “logic” people out of this opinion. So given that many people will be harmed by such a thread, and so far **Max\_S** is the only poster willing to admit that he actually would be interested in the specific conversation of when it’s OK to rape someone, it is entirely reasonable to decide that the harm of allowing it outweighs the harm of prohibiting it. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4527 "2021-09-10T15:57:27Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > What great understanding and mind expansion are you anticipating under the “justified rape” topic? What minds are you hoping will be changed? I invite **SeniorBeef** to do the same. Wait, what? I started ignoring **Beef** ’s walls’o’text around the new year. Sounds like he’s an even bigger jackass than I thought! ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4528 "2021-09-10T16:00:45Z")
I’ve stayed out of this discussion, but have been watching everything play out. @Max_S , I don’t think you were trolling, and I like you as a poster, and I’d hate to see you leave the board because of this situation. I think you were remarkably tone deaf with that thread, and your justification of it when you disputed your warning. We all have our blind spots, on here and in real life. Just consider it a teachable moment. I quote Billy Joel: If I see it as experience, it hasn’t gone to waste. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4529 "2021-09-10T16:00:49Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You’ll note that I wasn’t addressing you, and may draw the appropriate conclusion. Sure. You’re a bigot and a bully who’s prejudiced against the disabled. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4530 "2021-09-10T16:00:58Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I can’t imagine a situation in which the hypothetical (by **Max\_S** that set off this multi-thread discussion) would ever justify “rape”. It’s entirely repugnant to me. But the discussion of it as a hypothetical for those interested in considering it is not offensive to me. It’s not exactly interesting either. Personally, I would have no trouble avoiding taking part and even thinking that it’s problematic for multiple reasons. I just hesitate taking the position it should be prohibited, despite acknowledging the fact that some may find it offensive. “Offensive” is a light word to use, and I’ve been saying “bothered” to avoid the right-wing knee-jerk sneers that attach to “offensive.” Here’s the thing: I don’t have a visceral reaction to threads like that. I’ve hardly ever been sexually assaulted, and I’m just about never worried about it. It doesn’t ping my stress meter in the way that, say, images of needles going into arms does. But I don’t have to have a visceral reaction to something to understand that others do, _and to take that into account_. I ask my dad and his wife – a doctor and nurse, respectively – not to tell stories about injections gone wrong while I’m around, because it really skeeves me out, instills a low-level panic in me. At first they ignored me, until I realized I had to get up and leave the room mid-conversation when they did this. Finally it was disruptive enough that they took the hint. And these are people who love me and are family. Here? When people have a visceral reaction to something, they can’t rely on the interlocutors to love them and have their best interests at heart. They can’t rely on folks taking it into account. That’s why we have mods. You don’t need to have that same reaction to rape threads. I don’t have that same reaction to rape threads. But because I do, I don’t freaking start intellectual hypothetical rape debates. If you (impersonal you, not Quicksilver) really want to, I suggest you find some place where folks won’t have such strong visceral reactions to them. Or at least some place where the mods will let you get away with being kind of shitty to some of the other posters. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4531 "2021-09-10T16:02:51Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Sure. You’re a bigot and a bully who’s prejudiced against the disabled. 👍 😃 👍 (I notice you never did quote me insulting Senorbeef, you liar!) ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4532 "2021-09-10T16:05:50Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I usually do this when I’m not sure if a new topic will be allowed under the rules. With that particular topic it didn’t cross my mind that it might run afoul of the rules against trolling or being a jerk. And you were wrong. Good lord, that thread was fucking disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4533 "2021-09-10T16:09:30Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Good lord, that thread was fucking disgusting. Too disgusting to joke about, a rarity. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4534 "2021-09-10T16:11:49Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I ask my dad and his wife – a doctor and nurse, respectively – not to tell stories about injections gone wrong while I’m around, because it really skeeves me out, instills a low-level panic in me. At first they ignored me, until I realized I had to get up and leave the room mid-conversation when they did this. Finally it was disruptive enough that they took the hint. And these are people who love me and are family. But that is not the equivalent of what is happening here. You are demanding that a group of people never discusses injections at all. Not that they avoid doing it in front of you, or warn you so you can leave the room, but they that must not ever talk about it between themselves either, because it bothers you so much. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > (I notice you never did quote me insulting Senorbeef, you liar!) ? Did you ask? It was here: > [@Disputing my warning/suspension](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputing-my-warning-suspension/950393/160): > > Jesus man, can you fuckin quit it already? This is really disgusting, and it’s betraying the fundamental attitude you have toward rape victims. You didn’t say his words sounded bad, or might give the wrong impression; you said it was betraying his fundamental attitude, and that it is really disgusting. That is clearly an insult. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4535 "2021-09-10T16:14:08Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > Just consider it a teachable moment. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I don’t freaking start intellectual hypothetical rape debates. If _this_ is the lesson, don’t discuss justifications of rape or ask people if rape is justified, by all means I’ve learned it. Before the ATMB topic, before even my original topic was closed, it was clear to me from the in-thread backlash that it wasn’t worth it. I instantly regretted starting that topic, after seeing how much _harm_ came out of it. I can be pretty dense sometimes, but at least I understand _that_ much. And as if the coffin wasn’t already ten feet under, I foolishly overlooked the genetic consequences of inbreeding - it wasn’t even a solid hypothetical for the discussion I wanted to have. I didn’t dispute any of this in ATMB. I did not dispute closing the topic, and I wrote somewhere I probably would have asked for it to be closed myself if I had time. _My_ concern in ATMB was less about whether that particular discussion is a good thing for these boards, and more about whether I deserved the warning/suspension for misogyny and being too offensive (it was later clarified the warning was for trolling and being a jerk). On _that_ front, I haven’t repented. ETA: Gadzooks! I won’t be starting another rape debate any time soon. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4536 "2021-09-10T16:18:03Z")
I hesitate to wade in, but I don’t know where the idea comes from that every topic must be open to discussion. Why? It seems like an argument for the necessity of an abstract absolutism. In what community setting is every topic acceptable? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4537 "2021-09-10T16:22:07Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > {…} Please, do share what you find so fascinating about justifications for rape. What great understanding and mind expansion are you anticipating under the “justified rape” topic? What minds are you hoping will be changed? I invite **SeniorBeef** to do the same. I second this request. I also want a pony, but expect to be disappointed. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4538 "2021-09-10T16:26:19Z")
> [@susan](#): > > I hesitate to wade in, but I don’t know where the idea comes from that every topic must be open to discussion. Why? This. There’s some universe of platonic ideals where this is the case. But in this universe, i.e. the real world, the ‘marketplace of ideas’ is full of snake oil and clunkers being sold as premium, still in the original shrink wrap top tier goods. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4539 "2021-09-10T16:27:40Z")
> [@susan](#): > > I hesitate to wade in, but I don’t know where the idea comes from that every topic must be open to discussion. Why? It seems like an argument for the necessity of an abstract absolutism. In what community setting is every topic acceptable? > The SDMB is a raucous, wildly entertaining house party that has kept users coming back for 22 years – “like caramel-covered crack,” as one user once put it. People participate not out of civic duty, but because it’s fun. Part of what makes it fun is the arguments, which anyone can start on any subject. The SDMB offers a soapbox and an audience that routinely numbers in the thousands and occasionally in the millions. How many minds are changed as a result of these freewheeling symposia I have no idea. But surely there’s value in having to defend your views in open debate, and in having cherished beliefs challenged. Or go and read @SenorBeef’s posts in the ABTM thread: > [@Disputing my warning/suspension](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputing-my-warning-suspension/950393/137): > > I may not have spent 20 years on this board if GD was a safe space with an approved list of topics when I got here. Trying to remove anything that might offend in GD kills the spirit of what that forum is about. > [@Disputing my warning/suspension](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputing-my-warning-suspension/950393/150): > > Trying to ban all potentially offensive or hurtful discussion has a massive chilling effect on open discussion. Being that sort of open discussion is exactly what GD is about and has been about, and the world will lose something if we simply ban all topics, conversations, and thought experiments that involve any subject that could potentially hurt anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4540 "2021-09-10T16:29:59Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > > [@TroutMan](#): > > > > {…} Please, do share what you find so fascinating about justifications for rape. What great understanding and mind expansion are you anticipating under the “justified rape” topic? What minds are you hoping will be changed? I invite **SeniorBeef** to do the same. > > I second this request. > > I also want a pony, but expect to be disappointed. Again, @SenorBeef answered this already in the ABTM thread: > [@Disputing my warning/suspension](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputing-my-warning-suspension/950393/76): > > I don’t believe that any intellectually honest discussion should be suppressed because the topic makes people uncomfortable. Think of how useful the trolley problems are in exploring the uniqueness and conflcts within the human mind and within our cultural values. But the trolley problems are hypotheticals about people being horribly dismembered by a runaway train. Why isn’t that a sensitive subject? Certainly there are people who have been hit by vehicles or had someone they cared about hit by … ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4541 "2021-09-10T16:33:39Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Again, @SenorBeef answered this already in the ABTM thread: > [@Senor Beef and his crusade against knowledge](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senor-beef-and-his-crusade-against-knowledge/657743/242): > > Wow, where to begin. For one thing, DrDeth, King’s master of Dipshittery and Defender of the Derp neglected to inform me that he pitted me. He didn’t post it in the GOT thread, he didn’t send me a PM. So I was unaware of this thread until someone pointed it out to me like an hour ago. While he was spamming to ask where I was and calling me a coward, he could’ve plainly saw that my little green dot indicating whether I’m online or not was dim all day. Calling out someone for being too cowardly t… ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4542 "2021-09-10T16:34:20Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Again, @SenorBeef answered this already in the ABTM thread: I know you have trouble understanding what you read, but my request was to explain what’s interesting about **rape**. Neither you nor SB have managed that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349.md?page=225) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349.md?page=227)