# Trolls R Us redux \[Now the argument clinic\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 27, 2020, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349 "2020-06-27T06:30:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 228
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4563 "2021-09-10T18:24:16Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > There are a number of topics that are beyond the pale which I would not even consider to be intellectually curious, let alone hypothesis worthy. Rape is certainly in the top three of such a list. The fact that others may find them offensive as well is very much a part of why people should think twice (and thrice) about starting topics about highly charged issues. I guess where we may be in disagreement is how much priority those considerations (of causing offense) ought to be given. Is, “ _That’s offensive to me!_ ”, sufficient grounds to limit such topics if it’s offensive to a sufficient number of people? I don’t agree that it is. But I will continue to consider and weigh the opinion that many people think that it should suffice. Again, “That’s offensive to me!” runs the risk of understating what’s happening. I think SmartAleq says it well when she says, “makes me gag and have flashbacks.” And IME, it’s not incredibly rare for people (let’s be real most often women) who have suffered sexual violence to have similar reactions. It’s not like, “You called me a liar and I was offended,” it’s a much more visceral reaction. I do think there are threads on rape that would be appropriate for great debates, including some that might be controversial: - Is it important to understand the mindset and motivation of rapists? - Are rapes really not about sex, _in the mind of the rapist_? - How should sexual violence be treated in fiction, compared to nonsexual violence? - What is the optimal law enforcement/judicial system approach to sexual violence? Notice that none of these are academic exercises designed to explore the limits of an ethical philosophy; rather, they’re all grounded in real-world problems. They take the problem seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4564 "2021-09-10T18:42:07Z")
Is _triggered_ the right word? As in triggering PTSD. _Bothered_ works too, but only because I know what you mean. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4565 "2021-09-10T18:55:46Z")
Max, I think you have this idea that people operate, or should operate, as if they were logic machines. And that every feeling can be adequately explained to those without the same experience, if one just tries hard enough. But you need to accept that some things can’t be fully understood without the accompanying experience, and they just need to be accepted, at least when coming from someone with that experience. If a rape survivor tells you this is how your post made them feel, you just need to accept it, and then decide what you’re going to do about it. Not every feeling from others needs to be catered to - but IMO this one definitely does. You just need to accept that talking about rape like you did causes profound pain to some people due to their experiences, and not do it anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4566 "2021-09-10T19:02:26Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Is _triggered_ the right word? As in triggering PTSD. “Triggered” works, denotatively; but right-wing assholes have so thoroughly mocked the word that it’s lost a lot of its connotative heft IMO. I tend to avoid it because of the right-wing assholes. They’ve won this one, as far as I’m concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4567 "2021-09-10T19:07:13Z")
Here is where I have a problem with that thread. And again, I don’t have anything against @Max_S for starting it, it was a mistake and nothing malicious. Now, I alluded to this before in the closed ATMB thread, but essentially with that intellectual discussion you have two possible answers… “No, even under that hypothetical I would not rape the last woman on Earth.” “Yes, in that hypothetical I would rape the last woman on Earth.” If everyone answers “no” there is not much to talk about. Sure, you can debate about _why_ it’s still wrong, but that’s not much of a debate and frankly that’s diverging from the central topic which is a yes or no question. It’s not very interesting and there really isn’t much to talk about. But if anyone answers “yes” then guess what. You have actual rape survivors who are part of the community of this board, and now they’re participating in discussion boards where a person has said that under the right circumstances they will rape someone. That is extremely, **EXTREMELY** fucked up. It doesn’t matter how outlandish the circumstances are. If your hypothetical is something like, “A comet is going to strike the world and kill all life and the only way to divert is to rape someone!”, not only is that the worst Jerry Bruckheimer film premise ever but it’s just ridiculous. Now matter how much sugar you try to wrap that turd in, it’s still a turd. So basically that thread is a trap. It’s a gross ultimatum. It may have been the intent to have an interesting and logical discussion, but that is _impossible_ with that subject. That’s why the thread was closed, and I think the suspension was to drive home how problematic it was. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4568 "2021-09-10T19:08:12Z")
You are all talking about someone who thinks that forced dating can be a peachy thing under the right circumstances. > [@Do sexual preferences make one a bigot?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexual-preferences-make-one-a-bigot/948544/263): > > there are situations where I think it would be morally wrong to refuse a date, even if you find them unattractive.[…]you do not have the absolute moral right to refuse. You’re not going to get through to him. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4569 "2021-09-10T19:09:21Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Now, I alluded to this before in the closed ATMB thread, but essentially with that intellectual discussion you have two possible answers… [Four possible answers](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputing-my-warning-suspension/950393/61), and even more ways to arrive at them. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4570 "2021-09-10T19:10:19Z")
All the calls for rape survivors not to click on the threads are basically this: Assholes: You have to take care of yourself! You’re responsible for that. Survivors: Yeah, we’re taking care of ourselves by trying to get shitty topics off the board. Assholes: Wait, don’t take care of yourself the way _you_ want, take care of yourself the way I tell you to! If you think you know better than other folks what they need to do to take care of themselves, you just might be an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4571 "2021-09-10T19:10:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You are all talking about someone who thinks that forced dating can be a peachy thing under the right circumstances. I _knew_ it would be a bad idea to return to that topic after being warned. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4572 "2021-09-10T19:12:37Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > [Four possible answers](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputing-my-warning-suspension/950393/61), and even more ways to arrive at them. When you are, at this point in the thread, saying shit like “4 possible answers” complete with link, you’re not getting it. Nobody’s asking you to be shitty in a respectful manner. You’re not going to debate or categorize or properly cite your way out of this situation. At this point I am starting to agree with people who say you’re not gonna get it. Maybe 20 years from now you’ll have the epiphany, but right now you seem to think that the approach that got you into this mess will suffice to get you out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4573 "2021-09-10T19:15:55Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > When you are, at this point in the thread, saying shit like “4 possible answers” complete with link, you’re not getting it. There are some points I get, but **Atamasama** ’s point is not one of them. (The link goes to ATMB, it is a response to **iiandyiiii** who pointed out the same thing) I mean, I get the point, I just don’t think it applies here. I didn’t come to a solid conclusion in the case where a woman has to decide whether to rape the _man_. At least one member in-thread said yes, the woman should rape the man. Nobody ever argued that a man should rape a woman. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4574 "2021-09-10T19:17:22Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > There are some points I get, but **Atamasama** ’s point is not one of them. Another concept I teach kids, especially gifted kids, is “irrelevant correction.” There was nothing in what Atamasama wrote that necessitated your correction. It comes across as a diversion. Focus. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4575 "2021-09-10T19:18:58Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > [Four possible answers](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputing-my-warning-suspension/950393/61), and even more ways to arrive at them. **Those are only two answers.** You can’t change the gender and then multiply by two, because that’s irrelevant. Rape is rape. The fact that you don’t understand that all that matters is “Will you rape or not?” is part of the problem here. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4576 "2021-09-10T19:19:15Z")
Like what? Everything is debatable. Now whether or not everyone is a suitable participant or audience for said debate? The answer to that is obviously no. Far too many people are either dishonest or immature for certain debates and thus want such lines of thought completely shut down. But the power to control speech shouldn’t be in the hands of the outraged mob. Are you saying that in a survival situation where their are scarce resources debates on triage or infanticide are so offensive, or rather taboo, that they can’t be morally held? That’s silly. The whole idea of utilitarian value of life is about maximizing certain properties. There are other philosophical and/or religious axioms/principles as well that one can explore. The biggest issue is that in modern western society rape is a very strong word and for many it’s worse than torture, dismemberment or death. I do understand that which is why I don’t think I’d participate in such a thread. Especially on a forum like this. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4577 "2021-09-10T19:22:05Z")
MrDibble! I was impressed by your reasoning in that thread. You took two conflicting sets of principles and came up with a reasonable lesser of two evils solution. I disagree with your illiberalness 😉 but sometimes you come up with a gem. See what freedom of speech enables! ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4578 "2021-09-10T19:22:15Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There was nothing in what Atamasama wrote that necessitated your correction. Was there something **Atamasama** wrote that necessitates me understanding that it applies to me & my topic? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4579 "2021-09-10T19:29:03Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Was there something **Atamasama** wrote that necessitates me understanding that it applies to me & my topic? I freaking give up. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4580 "2021-09-10T19:45:04Z")
I’m reminded of a quote from Einstein: “In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.” The ‘in theory’ part of this discussion is the concept that _anything_ should be a valid topic for debate in GD. The ‘in practice’ part is that this particular topic is causing, and may continue to cause, demonstrable, severe harm to at least some of the members. And there’s an argument about whether the topic (or any other incendiary topic) should inherently be verboten, or whether those most affected by the topic should, instead, avoid those topics (ie, on whose shoulders falleth the burden ?). What’s the equivalent of a College of Cardinals for SDMB ? How do we pick a Pope ? IMHO, the arguments for where these two lines should be drawn have been forcefully and repeatedly made. Horse: dead and roundly flogged. My point of Parliamentary procedure would be to suggest that it goes … wherever these things go … to be decided as policy for the MB and the relevant fora. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4581 "2021-09-10T20:02:37Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > I’m reminded of a quote from Einstein: > > “In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.” As a salient demonstration of an irrelevant correction, [this is probably a quote from Benjamin Brewster](https://quoteinvestigator.com/tag/richard-feynman/), and by clarifying that, all I’ve done is to distract from your point like a pedantic asshole, and I shoulda kept quiet and paid attention to your overall point instead. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4582 "2021-09-10T20:04:15Z")
“There’s never a shortage of pedantic assholes when you need one.” -Mark Twain [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349.md?page=227) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349.md?page=229)