# Trolls R Us redux \[Now the argument clinic\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 27, 2020, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349 "2020-06-27T06:30:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 243
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4863 "2021-09-15T13:01:18Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > You’re the one saying that somehow your skin color determines your intelligence. I’m NOT saying that or anything like it. I don’t believe it. You are the one lying here. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4864 "2021-09-15T13:04:00Z")
Then, I have no idea what the fuck you’re on about with “the left” and genetics. I bet if you did a survey of geneticists, you’d find the vast majority were liberals. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4865 "2021-09-15T13:14:04Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I bet if you did a survey of geneticists, you’d find the vast majority were liberals. Quite possible. It’s the popular understanding that is the issue. The reluctance to believe that differences in personality or intelligence could be heritable. The acceptance of environmental explanations without checking for confounding. Read the article to see what I am talking about. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4866 "2021-09-15T13:15:22Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Then, I have no idea what the fuck you’re on about with “the left” and genetics. > > I bet if you did a survey of geneticists, you’d find the vast majority were liberals. Take a deep breath and read the linked article in the New Yorker. It’s well written and demonstrates the point that the left gets genetics wrong about as much as the right. I think the book by Katheryn Paige Harding is going to be well worth reading. It’s definitely going to the top of my reading list. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4867 "2021-09-15T13:22:23Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It’s well written and demonstrates the point that the left gets genetics wrong about as much as the right. So, why is that transphobe only pointing a finger at the left? If the lesson is that both the left and right get genetics wrong, then so what? I read parts of that very, very long article and, at least the New Zealand stuff looks like warmed over scientific racism to me. I didn’t get into much more if it. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4868 "2021-09-15T13:28:20Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > So, why is that transphobe only pointing a finger at the left? I suspect it’s because she’s responding to left leaning posters. > [@RitterSport](#): > > If the lesson is that both the left and right get genetics wrong, then so what? Well then, it’s interesting to learn what everybody is getting wrong; that’s so what. > [@RitterSport](#): > > I read parts of that very, very long article and, at least the New Zealand stuff looks like warmed over scientific racism to me. I didn’t get into much more if it. Well, if you feel you have nothing to learn on the subject and are ready to dismiss it out of hand then that’s a choice you make. Just don’t pretend it’s a well informed decision. Me, I know what I don’t know and I’m going to read the book to see what I can learn. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4869 "2021-09-15T13:34:13Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Well, if you feel you have nothing to learn on the subject and are ready to dismiss it out of hand then that’s a choice you make. Just don’t pretend it’s a well informed decision. I’ve read tons about genetics and heritability. I have no doubt that intelligence, personality traits, athleticism, musical ability, etc., is all affected by your genes. I’m a big fan of Dawkins and Pinker. Pinker spends whole tomes arguing against the idea that humans are a blank slate, and I agree with him. I’m convinced that identical twins raised apart will be more alike than fraternal twins raised together. Will I learn more if I read that article? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4870 "2021-09-15T13:34:17Z")
Being very skeptical and very careful regarding arguments about intelligence and genetics is not “getting things wrong” - it’s the correct and proper approach to an issue that the right has used to justify the very worst human atrocities for decades and longer. We should be very careful, and generally skeptical, when these arguments are made without rock solid evidence, because they’re so prone to misuse. They shouldn’t be, and they’re not, rejected out of hand (at least not when real evidence is presented), but they should be held to a very high standard. If someone makes the standard racist argument about genetics, that’s another level, and without absolute 100% proof, they can be rejected as a run of the mill white supremacist (or tool of white supremacists). Nothing close to that proof, or even any real genetic evidence, has been provided to support the racists, of course. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4871 "2021-09-15T13:36:00Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I’ve read tons about genetics and heritability. I have no doubt that intelligence, personality traits, athleticism, musical ability, etc., is all affected by your genes. I’m a big fan of Dawkins and Pinker. Pinker spends whole tomes arguing against the idea that humans are a blank slate, and I agree with him. If you’re a fan of Pinker then why on earth do you have a problem with the subject? That’s where I got my ideas from too. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4872 "2021-09-15T13:37:15Z")
I don’t have a problem with the subject. Where did you get that idea? I have a problem with you claiming “the left” have a problem with the subject. As I mentioned, it’s the right who believes that homosexuality is a choice, when twin studies have shown a strong correlation between genetics and orientation. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4873 "2021-09-15T13:37:25Z")
The article is worth a read, with the caveat that it’s focusing on the issues on the left, not purporting to discuss both sides. > [@DemonTree](#): > > If that was ALL the left was wary of there wouldn’t be problem. The issue is people on the left being wary of or simply ignoring the entire subject of genetics, and denying things that are well established within the discipline. As I and others (and the article) said, the reason the left are wary is because a lot of people have claimed that certain things are “well established within the discipline” that really aren’t, and then used those claims for some utterly reprehensible purposes. > [@DemonTree](#): > > And I have noticed over and over again that people on the left (maybe on the right too) are skeptical of genetic explanations, but accept environmental ones uncritically. Yet blaming parents for their children’s autism or depression (or homosexuality!) is not a benign thing either. Wow, that’s a lot of weaselling in one paragraph. You make a broad statement about the left with a weak concession about the right, and then give three examples that are hardly examples of left-wing science denial (and one which is very, very strongly correlated with the right). That’s a big old nothingburger of a paragraph. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Why do you need to speculate? There is plenty of research on various aspects of this question. The fact you apparently don’t know about any of it is part of what I am talking about here. Race is not involved, but still you prefer to speculate than to do ten minutes of research. Safer not to know? You’re right - I should have followed your example and made a bunch of false assertions and misrepresentations backed by sneering insinuation. > [@DemonTree](#): > > You can’t talk about this stuff with people on the left because they believe genetics =\> scientific racism. …says the person who keeps characterising scientific racism as “genetics”. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4874 "2021-09-15T13:40:47Z")
Just learn that the right wing frames that in a way that it also paints a caricature about what the “left” thinks about this. > **[Why We Shouldn't Embrace the Genetics of Education](https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/just-visiting/why-we-shouldnt-embrace-genetics-education)** > > It's a trap! > Dr. Harden believes that genetic research can help create a more just and equal society, and I’m thinking, “What society you talkin’ 'bout Willis?” This is straight-up fantasyland. > > There is no limit to the damage we can do when wielding a score. > > According to the study produced by a team of researchers [too numerous to list](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41588-018-0147-3.epdf?referrer_access_token=_C0qEFqYJE0NJSmySSRqU9RgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0Nqad92v-7y1ilkmPqR7KMJgq_vv2M-jr2gmZ9CcUCxjKaLpN9-yY9v4iDlGgVeSLr5ogKvfcTUJbNZx0yDurIQhJFRlQfUM4ioAQoTiRCItaE_CPHGgFy3bMcv4KjAJ08graB4GBRZWdd7zJvSlJOCtM6H7igLQNcTpdwZBcQt0wZ0jAxMN5vt5_8CwTs8Z0qLLIat0YSbHPw8SNQbh_7QuckZE251gKVke5_8xc6i1A%3D%3D&tracking_referrer=www.theatlantic.com), what does the polygenic score for educational achievement [show](https://www.thessgac.org/faqs)? > > “The polygenic score we constructed “predicts” (see FAQ 1.4) around 11% of the variation in education across individuals (when tested in independent data that was not included in the GWAS).” > > “Polygenic” means multiple genes. There is no single “education gene.” The score reflects a constellation of genes the researchers say correlate to educational achievement. It’s a correlation not a causation. That’s why they have quotation marks around “predicts.” > > “Individuals with high polygenic scores have, on average, higher levels of education than those with lower polygenic scores. In the present study, we found that in a U.S. sample of young adults (the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent to Adult Health), 12% of those with the lowest 20% of polygenic scores graduated from college, compared with 57% of those with the highest 20% of polygenic scores.” > > On average. > > Can the polygenic score for educational attainment accurately predict an individual’s educational attainment? > > “No. While the “predictive” power (see FAQ 1.4) of our polygenic score is substantial—it predicts 11% of variation in educational attainment across individuals—and useful for some purposes (see FAQ 1.6), it is important to keep in mind that the score fails to predict the vast majority (89%) of variation in years of education across individuals.” > > **What are the policy implications of this study?** > > **“None whatsoever. Any practical response—individual or policy-level—to this or similar research would be extremely premature and unsupported by the science.”** > The researchers say there is no policy application to their research, but the lengthy FAQ to the research which attempts to address the concerns of people like me suggests they’re well aware that this monster is going to escape the lab and start stumbling through the policy world. > > Dr. Hardin says progressives should embrace this research, but how about a different scenario where a libertarian economist who believes that too much public money goes to schools and that too many students go to college who don’t belong there? What could a person with this policy agenda do with the polygenic educational attainment score? > > _Very Serious Economist: (Clears throat, adopts sober tone.) I am a believer in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, but why are we using taxpayer money to subsidize those who have only a 12% chance of graduating college?_ > > How long before schools subject to performance funding as determined by graduation metrics begin to discriminate against students with low polygenic educational attainment scores? > > When will automated human resources algorithms start weighing polygenic educational attainment scores when sorting through job applicants? > > It’s not discriminatory. It’s science! ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4875 "2021-09-15T13:40:58Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Will I learn more if I read that article? I don’t know. But I’m similarly a fan of Dawkins and Pinker. I didn’t learn much more from the article except that there is additional research being presented from someone that may provide new insight. Whether you or I learn more from Harding is hard to predict unless we read her book. But from the article, it doesn’t seem like Harding is pushing Murray’s agenda, if that’s what you’re thinking. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4876 "2021-09-15T13:41:26Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I don’t have a problem with the subject. Where did you get that idea? I have a problem with you claiming “the left” have a problem with the subject. As I mentioned, it’s the right who believes that homosexuality is a choice, when twin studies have shown a strong correlation between genetics and orientation. But a lot of people here _do_ have a problem with Pinker. Just ask @iiandyiiii. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4877 "2021-09-15T13:43:01Z")
@iiandyiiii, what’s your problem with Pinker? Does it have to do with his science, or his whiny complaints about letting Nazis speak at campus? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4878 "2021-09-15T13:45:19Z")
The latter. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4879 "2021-09-15T13:45:31Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > @iiandyiiii, what’s your problem with Pinker? Does it have to do with his science, or his whiny complaints about letting Nazis speak at campus? It’s with his science. I tried to discuss sex differences with Andy and he had a major problem with it. IIRC he thinks anyone who promotes the idea should be tarred and feathered. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4880 "2021-09-15T13:48:08Z")
Cite? Or is this just another lie? EDIT: I searched, and this is just another lie. Fuck off, liar. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4881 "2021-09-15T13:48:10Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Just learn that the right wing frames that in a way that it also paints a caricature about what the “left” thinks about this. I don’t take my cues from what the right thinks. I just read an interesting article in the New Yorker about a book on a subject that is both interesting and from a researcher whose credential seem legit and whose name hasn’t been floating around for the past 20 years. Maybe she has something to say worth hearing. What do _you_ think? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4882 "2021-09-15T13:51:32Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I don’t take my cues from what the right thinks. I just read an interesting article in the New Yorker about a book on a subject that is both interesting and from a researcher whose credential seem legit and whose name hasn’t been floating around for the past 20 years. Maybe she has something to say worth hearing. What do _you_ think? That what the report inside Higher Education points at the issue that even right wingers have pushed in the SDMB, that they do use this as an attempt to justify why they are demanding policy changes in education, particularly demanding the dismantling of progressive changes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349.md?page=242) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349.md?page=244)