# Trolls R Us redux \[Now the argument clinic\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 27, 2020, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349 "2020-06-27T06:30:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 244
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4883 "2021-09-15T13:58:28Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > That what the report inside Higher Education points at the issue that even right wingers have pushed in the SDMB, that they do use this as an attempt to justify why they are demanding policy changes in education, particularly demanding the dismantling of progressive changes. I’m going to base my views on what the latest legitimate scientific research has to say on the subject. I’m not going to lie awake at night worrying about what wrong conclusions racists are going to reach through deliberate misrepresentation of new data. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4884 "2021-09-15T14:02:33Z")
Here, I found it: > [@The Ongoing Death of Free Speech: Prominent ACLU Lawyer Cheers Suppression of a New Book](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/496): > > So show how testosterone affects these things, scientifically. Let’s see the data. Not suppositions, but actual data. This won’t be easy – how does one measure inherent interest, or inherent ability, separated from cultural and societal influence, in STEM fields? Since it’s not easy, people shouldn’t make such claims without this actual data. Making a hypothesis is fine with me. But claiming that this is so, without evidence? Fuck those people. That doesn’t mean “these people are the scum of the Earth and aren’t worth the dirt on my shoe”. That means “these people made a really dumb mistake and should feel bad and ashamed about that mistake”. Fuck those people until they realize the dumb things they’re saying and doing. And telling them this to their face is part of the process. I’ve seen it work in person. Hell, it’s worked on me. > [@The Ongoing Death of Free Speech: Prominent ACLU Lawyer Cheers Suppression of a New Book](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/496): > > I think making such claims without good evidence deserves social opprobrium. Supporting the “blacks are dumber” side deserves social opprobrium. Supporting the “women are inferior at STEM” side deserves social opprobrium. Even if one dresses it up in flowery, science-y sounding language. There’s no actual evidence for either claim. > [@The Ongoing Death of Free Speech: Prominent ACLU Lawyer Cheers Suppression of a New Book](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/502): > > Depends on what claims they make and the evidence behind them. Are they hypothesizing? Fine with me. Are they saying women are definitely inherently worse at STEM, and men are worse at caregiving and teaching, without full data and understanding of all the factors that go into these things? That’s not so fine with me. Naturally, Andy dismisses all evidence on the subject as inconclusive, so anyone making such claims is doing so without good evidence in his opinion. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4885 "2021-09-15T14:03:48Z")
You found what? Not a single word about Pinker’s scientific conclusions. Fuck you, liar. Stop making shit up. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4886 "2021-09-15T14:04:09Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > That what the report inside Higher Education points at the issue that even right wingers have pushed in the SDMB, that they do use this as an attempt to justify why they are demanding policy changes in education, particularly demanding the dismantling of progressive changes. What policy changes are the right demanding in education? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4887 "2021-09-15T14:10:12Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > What policy changes are the right demanding in education? Well, the religious right in the US seems to think that teaching creationism along side evolution, as an alternative theory, is a good idea. That’s one policy change I’d hate to see implemented in public (really, any) schools. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4888 "2021-09-15T14:11:42Z")
Also, their CRT bullshit, their abstinence-only sex ed, off the top of my head. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4889 "2021-09-15T14:12:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The latter. Yeah, that’s what I figured. I agree with you on that. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4890 "2021-09-15T14:12:19Z")
The right seems to think that re-writing history to pretend that slaves were happy immigrants is a good policy. At least in Texas schoolbooks. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4891 "2021-09-15T14:13:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You found what? Not a single word about Pinker’s scientific conclusions. Fuck you, liar. Stop making shit up. Like I said, I got my ideas from Pinker. Here’s an example of what he says: > “At the time I started writing this book it seemed clear to me that any between sex differences in thinking abilities were due to socialization practices, artifacts, and mistakes in the research. After reviewing a pile of journal articles that stood several feet high, and numerous books and book chapters that dwarfed the stack of journal articles, I changed my mind. The literature on sex differences in cognitive abilities is filled with inconsistent findings, contradictory theories, and emotional claims that are unsupported by the research. Yet despite all the noise in the data, clear and consistent messages could be heard. There are real and in some cases sizable sex differences with respect to some cognitive abilities. Socialization practices are undoubtedly important, but there is also good evidence that biological sex differences play a role in establishing and maintaining cognitive sex differences, a conclusion I wasn’t prepared to make when I began reviewing the relevant literature.” > > This captures my assessment perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4892 "2021-09-15T14:16:15Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Well, the religious right in the US seems to think that teaching creationism along side evolution, as an alternative theory, is a good idea. That’s one policy change I’d hate to see implemented in public (really, any) schools. Me too. > [@RitterSport](#): > > Also, their CRT bullshit, their abstinence-only sex ed, off the top of my head. The CRT stuff is something the left is demanding and right are objecting to, so I don’t count that. Abstinence only sex-ed is an example, though. I don’t see how either is relevant to @GIGObuster’s post, though. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4893 "2021-09-15T14:16:40Z")
So what? What did I say that disputes this? Be specific. Your history on this kind of bullshit is terrible. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4894 "2021-09-15T14:27:19Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > The CRT stuff is something the left is demanding and right are objecting to, so I don’t count that. This is false, but I’m not going open up that can of worms. You should really lay off the American right-wing media bullshit – they are lying to you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4895 "2021-09-15T14:33:01Z")
Right. CRT is not being taught in schools, except for college courses about CRT. Teaching about slavery and racism isn’t CRT - that’s teaching about slavery and racism. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4896 "2021-09-15T14:33:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So what? What did I say that disputes this? Be specific. Your history on this kind of bullshit is terrible. Pinker says there is good evidence that biological sex differences play a role in establishing and maintaining cognitive sex differences. You say anyone claiming such a thing deserves social opprobrium. Ergo, you think Pinker deserves social opprobrium for saying it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4897 "2021-09-15T14:35:11Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > You say anyone claiming such a thing deserves social opprobrium. Bullshit, you fucking liar. Fuck off with your ongoing, cite free lies. My words were very specific, and this isn’t what they said. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4898 "2021-09-15T14:35:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Right. CRT is not being taught in schools, except for college courses about CRT. > > Teaching about slavery and racism isn’t CRT - that’s teaching about slavery and racism. Which is entirely missing the point. The left are making changes in the curriculum. The right are objecting to those changes. Whatever you call those changes, the right wants to prevent them, which is not the same as trying to institute changes of their own. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4899 "2021-09-15T14:35:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > My words were very specific, and this isn’t what they said. Well explain to me the difference, because I am not seeing it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4900 "2021-09-15T14:36:21Z")
Yes, the right doesn’t want details of slavery and racism taught in schools. The left does. Do you agree with the right on this, or the left? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4901 "2021-09-15T14:36:23Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Pinker says there is good evidence that biological sex differences play a role in establishing and maintaining cognitive sex differences. > > You say anyone claiming such a thing deserves social opprobrium. I keep going back and forth on whether you’re a mascot for the UK Dunning-Krugers, or a liar. iiandyiiii wrote, “Supporting the “women are inferior at STEM” side deserves social opprobrium.” Does Pinker support the “women are inferior at STEM” side? You certainly did not quote him doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/4902 "2021-09-15T14:40:09Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Whatever you call those changes, the right wants to prevent them, which is not the same as trying to institute changes of their own. This is also incorrect. I live in a state where one of these bills was just vetoed. Yes, the left got some changes successfully passed in the social studies curriculum, to ensure that things like the Wilmington Race Massacre are taught in schools. The right is _also_ trying to make changes to muzzle how teachers talk–and, more importantly, to intimidate teachers. Many of us have, for years, talked about the history of racism in our nation. Like, my own sixth grade teacher had us read _Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry_ in 1984, and we talked about sharecropping and Jim Crow and the Klan and lynchings. Technically that teaching would be allowed under the vetoed bill, but the effect of the bill was quite clearly to intimidate teachers away from teaching about the history and pervasiveness of racism. It was an attempt to change the curriculum by keeping people from teaching actual history. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349.md?page=243) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349.md?page=245)