# Troops, Suicides, Iraq **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2003, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troops-suicides-iraq/208296 "2003-10-19T02:49:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2003, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troops-suicides-iraq/208296/1 "2003-10-19T02:49:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*[High Suicide Rate Worries U.S. Army\*\*](http://www.military.com/NewsContent?file=FL_army_101503) > _October 15, 2003_ > Eleven U.S. soldiers and three Marines have killed themselves in the past seven months in Iraq, an _annualised_ rate of **17 suicides per 100,000** soldiers. > > A dozen other army deaths being investigated in Iraq could include suicides, and the U.S. Navy is also investigating one possible suicide, it said. > > **Most of the suicides have occurred since May 1, when major combat operations were declared over.** > [@](#): > > **[Suicide - the GI’s embedded enemy](http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/10/14/1065917415308.html)** > _By Oliver Poole in Los Angeles > October 15, 2003_ > > Since the start of the war 11 have been confirmed and a dozen more deaths are thought to be suicides. If all are confirmed it would mean an annual rate of 34 per 100,000 servicemen > > The usual army suicide rate is 10 to 13 per 100,000 - the figure for the same age group in the general population. > > The army said it would send doctors to Iraq to try to improve the identification of soldiers at risk. It has sent 478 home with mental health problems. > [@](#): > > \*\*[Army concerned about suicides of US troops in Iraq\*\*](http://famulus.msnbc.com/FamulusIntl/reuters10-16-101830.asp?reg=MIDEAST) > \*By Will Dunham > WASHINGTON, Oct. 16 \* > > The team sent to Iraq included included psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers and experts in combat stress, said Lyn Kukral, a spokeswoman for the Office of the Army Surgeon General and the Army Medical Command. > The team was expected to complete a report on its findings and make recommendations in two to three weeks, officials said. > ‘‘Suicide is just one aspect of many behavioral health and individual readiness issues that the team is assessing. The team is interested in identifying particular deployment stressors and their impact on the deployed soldiers. The team is also concerned with reviewing the effectiveness of current combat-stress control doctrine,’’ Kukral said in a statement. What are the odds that these other dozen deaths “thought to be suicides” will be “confirmed”? Anybody familiar with the investigation and reporting procedures taht the Army might be using? C/Would the Army decide that this sort of info should be “classified”? If these “other dozen” _are_ confirmed, what would that say about the stat of morale? Is it just “to be expected”? Or does it actually reveal some sort of a morale problem that needs to be addressed? Medical statisticians, Even if the “other dozen” aren’t confirmed, how statiscally signifigant is a rise of 4 per 100,000? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2003, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troops-suicides-iraq/208296/2 "2003-10-19T03:04:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > Medical statisticians, > Even if the “other dozen” aren’t confirmed, how statiscally signifigant is a rise of 4 per 100,000? Not very. The increase isn’t large enough and the troops haven’t been there long enough to make any worthwhile statements on its significance. If they stay there in occupation for a few years and the rates really are 30+ per 100,000 (it’s unclear if they’re at the level now), then… well… I dunno. A need for more psychologists and counselors is indicated? It certainly doesn’t say anthing about the occupation itself. ---
**Author:** ![kiwiboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/35a633/32.png) [@kiwiboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kiwiboy)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2003, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troops-suicides-iraq/208296/3 "2003-10-19T04:20:49Z")
The graph on this [site](http://www.nimh.nih.gov/research/suichart.cfm) seems to give a suicide rate of 20 per 100,000 for Black males aged 20-24 and slightly more for White males of the same age. I’m not sure why this varies from the OP’s second quote, but these figures would seem to suggest that if anything the suicide rate in Iraq is lower than that of the general population. ---
**Author:** ![Asteroide](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@Asteroide](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asteroide)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2003, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troops-suicides-iraq/208296/4 "2003-10-19T09:27:19Z")
I’d have to go along with what’s been said so far. There’s a serious lack of data here - > [@](#): > > The usual army suicide rate is 10 to 13 per 100,000 is this fairly consistent, or are there high years and low years (deviation) ? If so, what are other factors ? The period is very short, and the numbers are too small - small numbers are a major statistical bugaboo - it would only take a couple of cases to completely skew your readings. A more valid baseline would be a suicide rate for similar duty (far from home, higher stress etc). Also - in the land of pure surmise - there’s an old bit of army lore that a suicide attempt will get you discreetly sent home in the blink of an eye. Ultimately, I guess the real questions are - what’s acceptable, and what, if anything, can be done ? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2003, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troops-suicides-iraq/208296/5 "2003-10-19T10:34:05Z")
The Army has been having a problem with suicide rates since [before 9-11.](http://ww2.pstripes.osd.mil/01/jul01/ed073101g.html) Wild-assed guess, but I am going to say that _a_ cause would be a stressfull environment, coupled with insufficient training. Compare the lower rates among the USMC, who get more strenuous training, but are in roughly the same environment. (Not to mention, they are taking a more aggressive stance in their duties, and have been having less problems. The Marines are America’s original peace-keepers, after all…) ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troops-suicides-iraq/208296/6 "2003-10-19T16:30:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Asteroide \* > **A more valid baseline would be a suicide rate for similar duty (far from home, higher stress etc).** I agree, but would go a step further – an ideal baseline would be suicide rates among soldiers in wartime. I’d suspect that suicide rates go up amongst soldiers during war, but there seems to be a dearth of information on the subject. From the Oliver Poole article quoted in the OP: > [@](#): > > There are no official figures for GI suicides in Vietnam. > > But when the US pulled out in 1975 it had lost 60,000 troops and, according to the Veterans of Foreign Wars, 180,000 Vietnam veterans have since taken their own lives. > > In Britain more than 260 Falklands veterans have committed suicide - more than those killed in the war. Based on this, a rise in post war suicides seems to be the norm. This may be a delayed reaction and wartime rates might remain the same as prewar rates, but without numbers to work with its just conjecture on my part. Suicides appear to be swept in with non-battle casualties. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2003, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troops-suicides-iraq/208296/7 "2003-10-19T18:18:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kiwiboy \* > \*\*The graph on this [site](http://www.nimh.nih.gov/research/suichart.cfm) seems to give a suicide rate of 20 per 100,000 for Black males aged 20-24 and slightly more for White males of the same age. > > I’m not sure why this varies from the OP’s second quote, but these figures would seem to suggest that if anything the suicide rate in Iraq is lower than that of the general population. \*\* Larger age group? Not everyone in the military is 20 - 24. Just a guess. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2003, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troops-suicides-iraq/208296/8 "2003-10-19T18:20:41Z")
If this is all so normal, why the concern on the part of the Army? If it’s well within what’s normal, why don’t we already have sufficient numbers of “psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers and experts in combat stress” over there already? ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troops-suicides-iraq/208296/9 "2003-10-20T12:16:31Z")
How do you determine suicides in doubtful cases in the middle of a shooting occupation ? Even a small accident with a grenade might seem similar to a suicide… or a suicide appear to be anything else but a suicide. Still war is hell always… more suicides will be forthcoming… even among troops going back home… like the falklands example given.