# Trouble with the word "moot" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 16, 2013, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trouble-with-the-word-moot/668953 "2013-09-16T06:59:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trouble-with-the-word-moot/668953/1 "2013-09-16T06:59:26Z")
Hi, I come across the word “moot” all the time but I’m not sure what it means since it could mean any number of things . I’d appreciate some feedback on the numbered examples to help me identify what “moot” means in each of them. moot1 [moot] Show IPA adjective 1. open to discussion or debate; debatable; doubtful: a moot point. 2. of little or no practical value or meaning; purely academic. 3. Chiefly Law. not actual; theoretical; hypothetical. verb (used with object) 4. to present or introduce (any point, subject, project, etc.) fordiscussion. 5. to reduce or remove the practical significance of; make purelytheoretical or academic. 6. Archaic. to argue (a case), especially in a mock court. 1. Depending on how you look at it, U.S. banks could lose as much as $1 trillion if the current money troubles in Europe were to lead to a full blown financial crisis. Or they could close to nothing. It depends on who you believe. Understanding why there is a difference of opinion is at the heart of knowing whether U.S. banks are really in trouble. For right now, the point may be moot. (purely academic?) 2.His request became moot …(?) 3.How do you use the word “mooted”? 1. Getting a point across correctly is moot (doubtful) if your audience is asleep. 2. “In a regressive response more sutiable for reality television than a white-shoe corporation in the 21st century, plaintiff was advised that these other comparator females may wear what they like, as their general unattractiveness rendered moot (doubtful) their sartorial choices, unlike plaintiff, whose shapeliness could not be heightened by beautifully tailored clothing.” I look forward to your feedback. davidmich ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trouble-with-the-word-moot/668953/2 "2013-09-16T07:07:15Z")
In common usage, it really only means one of two things: A question or point which can never be more than theoretical - of little or no practical application, i.e: “Do you think Triceratops meat would be a better choice than the meat of a carnosaur?” - until we invent Time Safaris, the question is moot. A theoretical suggestion or idea (which may or may not later become a practical reality): “John mooted that Time Safaris, although fun, would fuck up the timelines” ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trouble-with-the-word-moot/668953/3 "2013-09-16T07:16:47Z")
FWIW, my sense is that the term means something like, “Now irrelevant, given some development”. “After Larry Summers withdrew his candidacy, the question about whether he would be a better Fed Chair than Janet Yellen became moot.” ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trouble-with-the-word-moot/668953/4 "2013-09-16T07:24:37Z")
> [@davidmich](#): > > 1. > > open to discussion or debate; debatable; doubtful: a moot point. > 4. > to present or introduce (any point, subject, project, etc.) fordiscussion. For 1 and 4, the idea was that if the topic was important to you, you’d just tell them the problem and your answer , so if you just drop it over to committee, then its unimportant… or in fact you want the idea to remain on paper… just talk… By sending it to a democratic process of talk and talk… But anyway its mooted when its sent down from the executive to the committee… its being assigned a lesser value, as if it was just of interest for the committee only, and not important to the organisation or its stake holders in general. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trouble-with-the-word-moot/668953/5 "2013-09-16T07:32:39Z")
I would say that #6 is wrong in saying that meaning is archaic - arguing cases in a mock court is part of many law programs. It’s a specialised meaning, but not archaic. That also helps answer question 3 on the OP. bunch of law students go into a bar and order some pitchers of beer: “Whoo-hoo! We mooted today! One more requirement achieved!” ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trouble-with-the-word-moot/668953/6 "2013-09-16T09:06:29Z")
This is what Michael Quinnan in World Wide Words says about it. I consider him to be an authority on etymology. > [@](#): > > Question? > Did the phrase a moot point originally mean ‘a debatable point’? Nowadays it seems to mean ‘an irrelevant point’ or even ‘a point so irrelevant it’s not worth debating’. Some actually have taken to referring to it as a mute point. What’s the history here? > Moot point is one of those phrases that once had a firm and well-understood meaning, but no longer does. It was just as you say: a matter that was uncertain or undecided, so open to debate. > > It comes from the same source as meet and originally had the same meaning. In England in medieval times it referred specifically to an assembly of people, in particular one that had some sort of judicial function, and was often spelled mot or mote. So you find references to the witenagemot (the assembly of the witan, the national council of Anglo-Saxon times), hundred-mote (where a hundred was an Anglo-Saxon administrative area, part of a county or shire), and many others. So something that was mooted was put up for discussion and decision at a meeting — by definition something not yet decided. > > The confusion over the meaning of moot point is modern. It is a misunderstanding of another sense of moot for a discussion forum in which hypothetical cases are argued by law students for practice. Since there is no practical outcome of these sessions, and the cases are invented anyway, people seem to have assumed that a moot point means one of no importance. So we’ve seen a curious shift in which the sense of “open to debate” has become “not worth debating”. > > The mute spelling is a development that has come about because moot is now a fossil word, usually encountered only in this phrase; there is an understandable tendency to convert the unknown into the known, and mute seems to fit the new meaning rather better. But it’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trouble-with-the-word-moot/668953/7 "2013-09-16T09:25:41Z")
> [@davidmich](#): > > 1. Depending on how you look at it, U.S. banks could lose as much as $1 trillion if the current money troubles in Europe were to lead to a full blown financial crisis. Or they could close to nothing. It depends on who you believe. Understanding why there is a difference of opinion is at the heart of knowing whether U.S. banks are really in trouble. > For right now, the point may be moot. (purely academic?) > > 2.His request became moot …(?) > > 3.How do you use the word “mooted”? > > 1. Getting a point across correctly is moot (doubtful) if your audience is asleep. > 2. “In a regressive response more sutiable for reality television than a > white-shoe corporation in the 21st century, plaintiff was advised that > these other comparator females may wear what they like, as their > general unattractiveness rendered moot (doubtful) their sartorial choices, unlike > plaintiff, whose shapeliness could not be heightened by beautifully > tailored clothing.” > > I look forward to your feedback. > davidmich I’m not sure what the usage is for example 3, but in all of the others, it’s definition in the sense of 2 or 5 of the senses listed in the OP - IOW, irrelevant, pointless, academic, etc. Discussing whether Batman or Superman is the better superhero for example can be regarded as moot in a certain sense since it’s unlikely that you’d ever be able to establish suitable criteria for coming to a definite resolution of the issue. That might be stretching the usage a bit but I think it’s still within bounds. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trouble-with-the-word-moot/668953/8 "2013-09-16T11:54:52Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I would say that #6 is wrong in saying that meaning is archaic - arguing cases in a mock court is part of many law programs. It’s a specialised meaning, but not archaic. > > That also helps answer question 3 on the OP. bunch of law students go into a bar and order some pitchers of beer: “Whoo-hoo! We mooted today! One more requirement achieved!” I think that you (and the OP) are being misled by the formatting – it ought to look like this: > [@](#): > > moot1 [moot] Show IPA > **adjective** > > 1. open to discussion or debate; debatable; doubtful: a moot point. > 2. of little or no practical value or meaning; purely academic. > 3. Chiefly Law. not actual; theoretical; hypothetical. > > **verb (used with object)** > 4. to present or introduce (any point, subject, project, etc.) for discussion. > 5. to reduce or remove the practical significance of; make purely theoretical or academic. > 6. Archaic. to argue (a case), especially in a mock court. “verb (used with object)” doesn’t refer to definition 3, but to 4, 5 and 6. So we have three options for using the word “mooted”: 1. “Henry mooted the idea of seeking alternate funding”. 2. “The arrival of Aunt Jemima mooted our plans for the weekend”. 3. “In their second year, the students mooted the case of _Wiggins_ v _Pollock_”. Note that moot, as a verb, is transitive – it requires an object. You can’t say “I mooted”, you have to say “I mooted [something]”. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trouble-with-the-word-moot/668953/9 "2013-09-16T15:04:39Z")
Thank you all. You’ve been very helpful davidmich ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trouble-with-the-word-moot/668953/10 "2013-09-16T16:09:11Z")
> [@WotNot](#): > > Note that moot, as a verb, is transitive – it requires an object. You can’t say “I mooted”, you have to say “I mooted [something]”. I’m afraid I disagree, based on my own experience in law school. “Mooting” as a verb can include the activity of arguing in a moot court, rather than referring to a specific case. “We’re mooting tomorrow” was a common way to describe the activity of doing a moot court, without referring to the topic. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trouble-with-the-word-moot/668953/11 "2013-09-16T16:19:38Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I’m afraid I disagree, based on my own experience in law school. “Mooting” as a verb can include the activity of arguing in a moot court, rather than referring to a specific case. “We’re mooting tomorrow” was a common way to describe the activity of doing a moot court, without referring to the topic. I’m happy to bow to your superior knowledge. I was only attempting to expand on the dictionary definition provided – law school jargon’s a little outwith my bailiwick. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trouble-with-the-word-moot/668953/12 "2013-09-16T17:07:53Z")
I would say there’s a couple of definitions missing from the list. “Moot” can be a noun, as in, “the first year moot,” referring to the course requirement of arguing a moot. There are also competitive moots: the Jessup Moot in International Law is one of the best-known ones, with students competing from around the world. “Moot” in that usage is a noun. The other definition missing, from the adjective list, is also derived from the activity of mooting. The students who compete in a moot competition are on the moot team. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trouble-with-the-word-moot/668953/13 "2013-09-16T17:14:35Z")
Link to the wiki article on the Jessup Moot: > **[Philip C. Jessup International Law Moot Court Competition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_C._Jessup_International_Law_Moot_Court_Competition)** > > The Philip C. Jessup International Law Moot Court Competition, also known as the Jessup Moot or The Jessup, is the oldest and largest international moot competition in the world, attracting participants from almost 700 law schools in more than 90 countries in recent years (100 countries took part in 2018). The competition has been described as the most prestigious moot court competition in the world by a large number of organisations and universities internationally, and is one of The competitio... Note that sometimes “moot” is used as an adjective (“the Jessup Moot Court”) and sometimes as a noun (“the moot is argued in Washington.”) ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trouble-with-the-word-moot/668953/14 "2013-09-16T17:35:21Z")
Miles Davis used one quite extensively. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trouble-with-the-word-moot/668953/15 "2013-09-16T17:42:23Z")
> [@](#): > > It comes from the same source as meet and originally had the same meaning. In England in medieval times it referred specifically to an assembly of people, in particular one that had some sort of judicial function, and was often spelled mot or mote. So you find references to the witenagemot (the assembly of the witan, the national council of Anglo-Saxon times), hundred-mote (where a hundred was an Anglo-Saxon administrative area, part of a county or shire), and many others. So something that was mooted was put up for discussion and decision at a meeting — by definition something not yet decided. Wherefore the Entmoot in the Two Towers. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trouble-with-the-word-moot/668953/16 "2013-09-16T18:16:30Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > This is what Michael Quinnan in World Wide Words says about it. I consider him to be an authority on etymology. Yeah, I agree with this. IMHO, there is another similar point affecting modern usage. I hear it used by people who (correctly) want to move a discussion past a certain point. In correct usage, this point would be unknown or unkowable or debatable. Sometimes it seems to me that people incorrectly use it to mean that the issue is decided. The usage is similar in that it’s basically saying “we’re not going to talk about that anymore”. Unfortuanately, I can’t think a specific example at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trouble-with-the-word-moot/668953/17 "2013-09-16T18:28:50Z")
> [@WotNot](#): > > I’m happy to bow to your superior knowledge. I was only attempting to expand on the dictionary definition provided – law school jargon’s a little outwith my bailiwick. No probs - law school usage is definitely a specialised meaning of the word, not the common meaning, as the discussion in this thread shows. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trouble-with-the-word-moot/668953/18 "2013-09-16T18:38:36Z")
> [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](#): > > Yeah, I agree with this. > > IMHO, there is another similar point affecting modern usage. I hear it used by people who (correctly) want to move a discussion past a certain point. In correct usage, this point would be unknown or unkowable or debatable. Sometimes it seems to me that people incorrectly use it to mean that the issue is decided. The usage is similar in that it’s basically saying “we’re not going to talk about that anymore”. Unfortuanately, I can’t think a specific example at the moment. Is the “decided” meaning actually incorrect then? As in “The jury was considering the death penalty for the convicted murderer, but when he succumbed to a heart attack in the courtroom, the point became moot.” ---
**Author:** ![misling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ab097/32.png) [@misling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misling)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trouble-with-the-word-moot/668953/19 "2013-09-16T18:51:43Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Is the “decided” meaning actually incorrect then? As in “The jury was considering the death penalty for the convicted murderer, but when he succumbed to a heart attack in the courtroom, the point became moot.” This is using “moot” to mean “irrelevant” or “purely academic”. I think this is the more common usage now, though “debatable” is closer to the original meaning. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trouble-with-the-word-moot/668953/20 "2013-09-16T19:49:04Z")
I believe that this is one of those words which means something different in U.S. and British usage. In the U.S. moot (adj) typically means a point that has been decided and so it is pointless or academic to discuss. In British English moot (adj) means a point that is open to discussion – almost exactly the opposite. See here for instance: [On (American) mootness | Motivated Grammar](http://motivatedgrammar.wordpress.com/2012/04/12/on-american-mootness/) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trouble-with-the-word-moot/668953.md?page=2)