# Troy was silly (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 15, 2004, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troy-was-silly-spoilers/245234 "2004-05-15T05:16:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troy-was-silly-spoilers/245234/21 "2004-05-16T02:41:29Z")
> [@DaphneBlack](#): > > Achilles’ “relationship” with Briseis was incredibly, horrifyingly wrong. She was a WAR PRIZE, not a love interest. Oy gevalt. Yeah, his actual love interest should have been Patroclus. Of course, I only say that because I could really get into steamy love scenes between Pitt and Garrett Hedlund. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troy-was-silly-spoilers/245234/22 "2004-05-16T03:28:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Agamemnon’s supposed to get back to Greece and get killed by his wife Clytemnestra, who is pissed that, among other things, he’s ditched her for a slave girl, sacrificed her daughter Iphigenia to the gods, and run off to Troy for ten years. It’s a much more fitting fate all around, if you ask me. :smack: Thanks, **VampyChick**! _Now_ I remember. ---
**Author:** ![jastu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/43a26b/32.png) [@jastu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jastu)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troy-was-silly-spoilers/245234/23 "2004-05-16T05:03:55Z")
I enjoyed the movie overall and didn’t worry too much about the inaccuracies. Just about any movie can be criticized and picked to pieces, I like to sit and enjoy the spectacle for a couple of hours and take it for what it is, entertainment. [hijack] Eric Bana was a comedian back in Australia before he went to Hollywood. He did a small Australian movie which has somewhat of a cult following called The Castle, one of my personal favourites. In the Castle he plays a character Con Petropoulous who has some classic lines in the movie. In the battle scene which followed the Paris and Menelaus confrontation, my daughter leaned over and whispered to me in her best **Con** voice “I’m very disenchanted with my brother right now”, followed by “sword fighting, 24 hours…a day”. That set us off in fits of laughter which lasted the entire battle sequence. I’m guessing everyone in the audience was wondering what we found so funny during that scene. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troy-was-silly-spoilers/245234/24 "2004-05-16T06:38:51Z")
I don’t think you can really call them inaccuracies when the whole story of Greece sacking Troy is made up, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troy-was-silly-spoilers/245234/25 "2004-05-16T06:52:12Z")
> [@Gangster Octopus](#): > > I don’t think you can really call them inaccuracies when the whole story of Greece sacking Troy is made up, isn’t it? It’s possible to get things from the period wrong without getting into the existence or nonexistence of an actual Achaean-Trojan war. And if the poster you’re quoting does mean events of the Trojan War, then s/he probably meant literarily wrong rather than historically, as in “That’s not the way Homer told it!” D’oh! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troy-was-silly-spoilers/245234/26 "2004-05-16T07:15:12Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > It’s possible to get things from the period wrong without getting into the existence or nonexistence of an actual Achaean-Trojan war. > > And if the poster you’re quoting does mean events of the Trojan War, then s/he probably meant literarily wrong rather than historically, as in “That’s not the way Homer told it!” D’oh! 😃 Yeah, I mean lierarily wrong, which strikes me as odd, since the movie only claims to be inspired by _The Illiad_ and that isn’t until the end. I don’t understand so much the complaints about the movie being untrue to the the source material when it never claims to be a literal interpretation and neither the movie nor the epic are meant to be accurate history lessons. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troy-was-silly-spoilers/245234/27 "2004-05-16T13:41:38Z")
I like the explaniation of why they waited outside the walls of Troy for ten years because to tear down the walls would have offended the gods. War might have been more about pleasing the gods than mere winning, and personal combat between champions probably slowed this down quite a bit. These people were warriors, not soldiers, remember there is a bit of a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troy-was-silly-spoilers/245234/28 "2004-05-16T16:04:31Z")
> [@Melandry](#): > > In the Iliad, Menelaus doesn’t die, and in the Odyssey, we see him living happily at home **with Helen** , apparently having made their peace with each other. Actually I thought Menelaus had a great line in the movie when Orlando Girlyman is slithering away for mercy and he cries out to Helen “Is _this_ what you left me for?” (Later she admits that Menelaus was a great and valiant warrior but Paris had the finer soul, which is negated by the fact that he caused thousands of people to die and get raped or enslaved to gratify his lust= Helen just seemingly coudln’t admit the truth, which is that she’d seen LOTR and wanted her some elf-ass.) I generally liked the movie and wasn’t bothered by the omissions/changes/etc… To tell the full story would have required at least three 3-hour epics ala LOTR and would have required parts of \*Illiad, Odyssey, Iphigenia, Agamemnon, The Trojan Women, Aeneid \*[nice tip of the hat in the final moments, btw, but then they’d already used the Trojan horse from it] and had some serious booty bumping scenes twixt Bradchilles and Patroclos that I just don’t think Mr. Pitt would have gone for. Since (hopefully) most people already know that Troy got it’s ass kicked big-time I don’t think a trilogy would have been anywhere near as successful as LOTR. Characters I do wish they’d retained: Cassandra (though it would be hard to explain her gift of prophecy without the gods), Hermione (if only to show just how much Helen wanted to leave), Hecuba (was Vanessa Redgrave or Judi Dench just not available?) and some of the 48 other sons of Priam (his having only two sons was one of the few parts that made me wince, as was Hector’s comment on Paris’s actions when they were kids [they didn’t _know_ each other when Paris was a boy). And I can’t believe they omitted Tom Bombadil altogether. All in all I thought it was a worthy effort. I’m curious how this movie and the Alexander the Great biopics are going to affect the historical epic genre. (Alexander the Great has been one of my biographical fascinations for years so I’m both really looking forward to and really dreading those movies.) As for Andromache and Telemachos, Illiad/Odyssey don’t address their fates but _The Trojan Women_ ends with Astyanax being killed by the Greeks and Andromache being taken off as a slave (along with Hecuba and Helen). Has anybody else noticed that in certain lighting Brad Pitt is f\*cking gorgeous? (And the side views of his butt guarantee a name that will be spoken for a thousand years- it takes some doing to make you forget that a shirtless Orlando is running around in the same movie- and I was surprised to learn that Eric Bana is not a bad actor at all.) ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troy-was-silly-spoilers/245234/29 "2004-05-16T16:11:23Z")
The above should have read “as for Andromache and ASTYANAX”- apologies. Did anybody else notice that the Apollonian priest addressed by Peter O’Toole’s Priam was played by [Nigel Terry](http://imdb.com/name/nm0856050/) , the actor who played Prince John to Peter O’Toole’s Henry in _The Lion in Winter_? (I’ve always pronounced Priam in a way that rhymes with “i am”, incidentally- in the movie it is pree-am- which pronunciation is correct?) ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troy-was-silly-spoilers/245234/30 "2004-05-16T19:49:02Z")
You know what threw me off; the number of times the sun rose over the waters in establishing shots of the Greek camp. I recall there being three times that the sunrise was in the west in that movie. And the movie was extremely uneven. Every time something interesting or clever or good occurred it was immediately followed by something dull or cliche or just plain awful to undermine it. I did think the death of Achilles worked. In the movie he didn’t need to be shot in the ankle, that’s just where Paris hit him initially and the only arrow that he kept in… ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troy-was-silly-spoilers/245234/31 "2004-05-16T20:04:19Z")
> [@Chairman Pow](#): > > I was hoping someone could fill me in on some of the in-jokes (or things I should have picked up on). I caught the “I hereby give you this here magic sword-motif thing Anaeus,” but there were some other things that I felt I should have picked up on, like, they kept cutting back to Eurhymics looking at Achilles, or someone would turn and look at another character and I felt that in the book that other character gave an important speech. I loved Achilles’s little snide shot at Odysseus - “If you sailed any slower, the war would’ve been over.” - Sort of a nod to his upcoming long trip, eh? Re: Achilles’s comments to the young lad, “That’s why your name will never be remembered.” I had to MST3K that line, so I followed it with “Goodbye, little Herodotus.” Heh. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troy-was-silly-spoilers/245234/32 "2004-05-16T22:09:56Z")
Has anybody ever wondered why there are so many high school and college football teams called “the Trojans” when they were some of the most famous losers in history? Or for that matter why it’s a brand of condoms when Troy is famous for being breached? ---
**Author:** ![constantine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@constantine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constantine)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troy-was-silly-spoilers/245234/33 "2004-05-17T07:40:47Z")
Overall I thought the movie was pretty good. It wasn’t intended to be a faithful retelling of the one version of the Iliad that has come down to us, and it didn’t need to be. I thought the casting of Brad Pitt and Eric Bana was extremely effective. Achilles is supposed to be hugely famous; Hector is supposed to be an also ran. Nice historical touch I noticed: the horseman rode without stirrups, which is (a) pretty hard to do, especially at a gallop, and (b) historically accurate, since stirrups didn’t come to Europe till the middle ages. The movie also did a nice job of showing what to me is one of the most fascinating aspects of the Iliad (which has lots of fascinating aspects to be sure): in many ways the Trojans come off better than the Greeks. Priam is a better king than Agamemnon, and in many ways Hector is far nobler (IMHO at least) than Achilles. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troy-was-silly-spoilers/245234/34 "2004-05-17T12:38:26Z")
I feel so cheap and shallow. Despite three years of Latin in high school, wherein we actually translated The Iliad from Latin to English… I never noticed anything mentioned in this thread. All I saw for nearly three hours was Brad Pitt, sweaty and dirty, fighting in a bitty leather skirt. 🆒 Maybe I’ll have to see it again for all that plot nonsense… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Caricci](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Caricci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caricci)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troy-was-silly-spoilers/245234/35 "2004-05-17T12:58:10Z")
Did anyone notice that there were scenes where Brad Pitt appeared to be badly dubbed a la Godzilla movies? My favorite part was at the end when my husband started imitating that annoying humming music and some guy in front of us said, “Oh, you know all the words!” We laughed and laughed and then when that voice started singing some actual words over the credits we laughed some more. Thank goodness for all movies being matinee price before six. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Carnage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/max_carnage/32/12775_2.png) [@Max\_Carnage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Carnage)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troy-was-silly-spoilers/245234/36 "2004-05-17T13:38:30Z")
Helen had the most perfect nose I’ve ever seen. I was totally enthralled by it. Granted, my attention was momentarily averted when she dropped toga in front of Paris, but afterwards I focused right back on that nose again. ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troy-was-silly-spoilers/245234/37 "2004-05-17T14:07:03Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > I feel so cheap and shallow. > > Despite three years of Latin in high school, wherein we actually translated The Iliad from Latin to English… I never noticed anything mentioned in this thread. Why would you translate the Iliad from Latin? ---
**Author:** ![Chairman\_Pow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Chairman\_Pow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chairman_Pow)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troy-was-silly-spoilers/245234/38 "2004-05-17T15:44:08Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > My favorite was when they just decided there was enough killing for the day and the fighting stopped. Is this in _The Illiad_? I believe that it was, but it was a battle between Ajax and Hector where Ajax wounds Hector and one of the gods comes down and suggests that they stop. They do, but not before patting each other on the ass and exchanging praise and some treasure. As for the comment about Hector being an also-ran, my recollection is that Hector chased the entire Greek army back across their defensive wall, while poor Achilles sat around for several books (IIRC, he’s only mentioned in the first book and then he comes around at the end of the epic to whoop ass hero-style). ---
**Author:** ![Chairman\_Pow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Chairman\_Pow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chairman_Pow)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troy-was-silly-spoilers/245234/39 "2004-05-17T16:34:39Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Has anybody ever wondered why there are so many high school and college football teams called “the Trojans” when they were some of the most famous losers in history? Or for that matter why it’s a brand of condoms when Troy is famous for being breached? Most of the high school football players I’ve met were pretty big losers themselves, but probably not in the way you’re referring to. Let me take a stab at the second one: Technically, the walls weren’t breached. It was only when the great jimmy-hat of Troy was circumvented did they have problems. Beware the wily, for they sneaketh into your pants just as easily as the Greeks sneaketh into Troy. Beware poorly-wrought horsies. ---
**Author:** ![constantine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@constantine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constantine)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troy-was-silly-spoilers/245234/40 "2004-05-17T16:37:37Z")
> [@Chairman Pow](#): > > As for the comment about Hector being an also-ran, my recollection is that Hector chased the entire Greek army back across their defensive wall, while poor Achilles sat around for several books (IIRC, he’s only mentioned in the first book and then he comes around at the end of the epic to whoop ass hero-style). The Iliad is about the wrath of Achilles. Achilles is the central character, not Hector. The central aspect of Hector’s character is that he fights nobly to save his city, but goes down swinging in a fight against Achilles. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troy-was-silly-spoilers/245234.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/troy-was-silly-spoilers/245234.md?page=3)