# True believing Christians: will you allow me to challenge and probe your beliefs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2011, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-believing-christians-will-you-allow-me-to-challenge-and-probe-your-beliefs/566809 "2011-01-07T23:54:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-believing-christians-will-you-allow-me-to-challenge-and-probe-your-beliefs/566809/41 "2011-01-09T19:56:59Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > God is unable to do the logically impossible, That’s a limit you’ve placed on God. Who says he can’t do the logically impossible? Who says he’s bound by logic (or any other universal law) at all? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-believing-christians-will-you-allow-me-to-challenge-and-probe-your-beliefs/566809/42 "2011-01-09T21:15:46Z")
Your initial premises is close enough, but there are some points that I would express differently. One thing in direct contradiction is salvation is a free gift, not to be earned, but anyway: > [@Stoid](#): > > My biggest questions are these: > > 1. Where did the Creator come from? (It/He “just always is/was” is understood to be the default answer for such mystery, you needn’t repeat it here. I’m just hoping for a different answer. Oh, and yes, I’m hip to Mormon theology which leads to the same question, it just goes back further, through more layers of Creators) I could ask where did the universe come from. Your concept of beginning and ending is flawed. Our time on earth is not the same as time in the heavens. All our time sort of fits as a moment, a blip, until earth is restored (given immortality as we will be also transfigured). Till then the concept of a beginning, middle end is forced upon us, but it is a abnormal state. Eternity is the normal state, and creation with a beginning and ending is what God created and that was something different. God has patterned man after Him and we can see from this that God, being ever loving, has a tendency to create children as a outflow of His Love. God desires children to pour out His Love into and His children are actually parts of God Himself. Our universe is a living child of God, so is the earth, a ‘smaller’ child, sometimes called mother earth and we are her children, children of the universe and children of God. God’s children on all levels are hybrids between God and creation, taken care of (Love poured out) from the Father. All life is God, always was God and exists without our concept of time. All children are part of a single body, just like each cell on your body is part of your body, and if you can expand that to every person on earth, going about their daily routeen is the body of the child of Mother earth, this child is Lord Jesus. Life itself never ends, a child is part of the heart of the parents always. It is the parent’s soul that lives in flesh inside the child. As that child grows in Love the parents Love will increase, and that child has children that grow in Love, that child’s Love will grow and so will the parent’s Love and so on. > [@](#): > > 1. What is the fate of people who have never had the opportunity to be exposed to the option of believing? There are millions of them. Is there any answer for them not having the same options as others? If you seek God you will find Him, that is a promise of God. It is God’s responsibility. Enoch got taken to heaven before Jesus was born, so the path to heaven as expressed by the ‘rapture’ was always open. The basically concept is life as we know it is really cycles of death, reincarnation is a cycle of eternal death. A soul will re-live their life over and over, each cycle getting worse (some exceptions), till they cry out for their Father, the one they knew way before they were born to creation, when they were physically connected to God. This is part of every person, every angel and demon. When things get so bad, they will remember the oneness they once had with the Father and will seek Him. Also believing and being baptized does not guarantee one not going to Hell (Jesus believed and was baptized but spend time in Hell), all it does is eventual salvation which everyone is going to experience anyway. Also Hell is not eternal (maybe eternal for the Devil), as Jesus has conquered the grave and gave every believer the power to raise people from the dead. > [@](#): > > 1. What about people who simply cannot believe? Since the Creator is supposed to be able to see into our minds, it’s a given that he/she/it knows that for some people, believe is not possible. Faith is not possible, and any attempt to “act as if” would be a lie that the Creator would see, so there would be no point. Do such people just die and go dark, or do they suffer in hell (depending on your belief about the non-saved afterlife experience). Faith is a gift from God, also God looks at our hearts, not the minds so much. They may go into hell for a time, or more accurately Sheol, which is Hell, but the fire and torment is masked to make it seem like a regular but very sucky life - till they cry out > [@](#): > > 1. If the answers to 2 & 3 amount to “shit outta luck”, how do you feel about that? Does it seem fair or reasonable to you? Does it matter? N/A everyone will come to God, possible exception the devil but I believe God has a plan for him too, much like a black hole can evaporate away due to Hawkins radiation, the devil may evaporate away as he has children and the children (who are part of the heart of the father) are saved. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-believing-christians-will-you-allow-me-to-challenge-and-probe-your-beliefs/566809/43 "2011-01-10T01:27:43Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Well, there seems to be a great deal of disagreement with my definitions, as loose as I tried to make them. > > So I guess I should start by asking the Christians what makes them Christian, with as little reference to your specific denominational beliefs as possible: what essentials do virtually all Christians agree upon: > > 1. There is an omniscient, omnipotent Creator? > > Maybe, maybe not. > > 1. It created everything? > > No everything is an expression of it > > 1. It created a living being known as Jesus Christ that then died as a martyr specifically as a means of “saving” people? > > Nup, but he was certainly very close to what we call god > > 1. And “saving” means…? > > Moving from self love to selfless love Good luck, from fundies to liberal Christians you will get many views. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-believing-christians-will-you-allow-me-to-challenge-and-probe-your-beliefs/566809/44 "2011-01-10T15:07:23Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The best I can sum them up is to say, “Faith is all that is required to be saved. But true faith necessarily causes you to have good works. So you don’t earn your salvation, your salvation causes you to do good. But salvation does require belief to get the whole thing started.” I wouldn’t say that around Catholics like me - that’s at the very _least_ borderline heresy. You have a very Protestant statement there, and maybe only half of them would even agree with that. I should probably point out, too, that while I’m keeping this civil, **kanicbird** … uh… isn’t exactly mainstream. Meaning most of his ideas are… “uncommon.” On God’s omnipotence: Theologians differ on exactly what God can do. There are roughly two views on what omnipotence means. First, omnipotence means that he can do anything which is not logially contradictory. That is, he can do anything which makes sense - although the sense it makes is to him and not to us. Second, that ordinary human laws of logic are things he permits for us to get by and that he himself isn’t bound by them. They probably only only exist in this universe. As a practical matter, it’s not really important here. As with msot things Christians argue about, the differences hardly exist for those who aren’t huge Christianity nerds. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-believing-christians-will-you-allow-me-to-challenge-and-probe-your-beliefs/566809/45 "2011-01-10T15:25:53Z")
Sorry, I haven’t been back to this thread since my last post. As you’ve seen, Christians are a diverse lot and you’re going to get a lot of variation in your answers. > [@Stoid](#): > > But isn’t the grace given only to those who believe? That is the means of “earning” - believing. I’ve never heard anyone who identified as a Christian say that everyone, believer or not, is saved - is that what you mean? No, the point it that we are _incapable_ of belief without grace - it comes first. Whether or not be believe is a response to God’s grace, not a trigger for it. Some Christians are Universalists – they believe all people will eventually come to be saved through Jesus Christ. Probably more widely believed is that people who refuse God’s gift of salvation through Jesus in this life have irreversibly rejected God and will remain separated from Him for eternity. Here is an imperfect analogy: someone gives you a Christmas present. If you accept it, does that mean you earned it? If you refuse it, do you blame the giver that you didn’t receive it? > [@Stoid](#): > > Well, there seems to be a great deal of disagreement with my definitions, as loose as I tried to make them. > > So I guess I should start by asking the Christians what makes them Christian, with as little reference to your specific denominational beliefs as possible: what essentials do virtually all Christians agree upon: > > 1. There is an omniscient, omnipotent Creator? > > 2. It created everything? > > 3. It created a living being known as Jesus Christ that then died as a martyr specifically as a means of “saving” people? > > 4. And “saving” means…? 1. Yes 2. Yes 3. Not exactly. Jesus was not “created” in the sense that there was ever a time he did not exist. He is co-eternal with the rest of the Trinity. The creeds describe this as “eternally begotten” of the Father. But yes, we believe that this person of the Trinity was incarnated as a human being at a particular place and time in human history, was crucified, died, and buried, and rose again. Through Him, we are saved. 4. “Saved” - our sinfulness (things we do contrary to God’s will and character) no longer separate us from God, in this life or the next. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-believing-christians-will-you-allow-me-to-challenge-and-probe-your-beliefs/566809/46 "2011-01-10T16:14:03Z")
> [@](#): > > For those who do believe that salvation is a “freely given gift” and in the same breath believe that believing/recognizing Christ is a prerequisite to receiving the “freely givin gift” of salvation… well, that’s just nonsensical. > > Which doesn’t mean there is no god or that Christ isn’t your savior, it means you need to stop thinking or saying that salvation is a freely given gift that you didn’t do or need to do anything to receive because it is clearly not true. In order to be true the gift would have to be given to everyone without reference to anything else at all, including their belief. (And I know that at least one person stated that some denominations do believe this.) And it would also make everyone a Christian, because Christ will have saved us all, whether atheist or Jew or Muslim or Hindu. Eternal salvation is an incredibly valuable thing required holiness on the part of the individual receiving it. Only the holy can be with God. Through the sacrifice of Jesus, believers are made holy, and thus are able to receive eternal salvation. It is free in the sense that it has been paid for by someone else and what I have to do receive it is so far out of line with the value received. Say I buy cars for all my family, but say they have to come pick them up at my house. After my brother gets home with his car he tells his neighbor he got a free car from me. Would the neighbor say. “It is not really free if you have to go all the way to Puddleglum’s house to get it”? ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-believing-christians-will-you-allow-me-to-challenge-and-probe-your-beliefs/566809/47 "2011-01-10T17:43:22Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Well, there seems to be a great deal of disagreement with my definitions, as loose as I tried to make them. > > So I guess I should start by asking the Christians what makes them Christian, with as little reference to your specific denominational beliefs as possible: what essentials do virtually all Christians agree upon: > > 1. There is an omniscient, omnipotent Creator? > > 2. It created everything? > > 3. It created a living being known as Jesus Christ that then died as a martyr specifically as a means of “saving” people? > > 4. And “saving” means…? I took on one set of Q’s but not this set~ 1.) Yes. 2.) Yes. 3.) Eh- I would prefere to say The Creator became part of the Creation as the man Jesus who lived, died & rose immortal for our salvation. 4.) Being spiritually reborn through trust in God/Jesus, living faithfully as possible to Him, and being raised into Eternal Life in harmony with God/Jesus either at physical death or the Day of Resurrection. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-believing-christians-will-you-allow-me-to-challenge-and-probe-your-beliefs/566809/48 "2011-01-10T17:52:21Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Say I buy cars for all my family, but say they have to come pick them up at my house. After my brother gets home with his car he tells his neighbor he got a free car from me. Would the neighbor say. “It is not really free if you have to go all the way to Puddleglum’s house to get it”? Bad analogy all around. Let me fix it for you: You hear from a friend of a friend of a friend that if you come over to my place I’ll give you a new car. The problem is that no one has ever returned from my place, and no one has actually seen any of these new cars. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-believing-christians-will-you-allow-me-to-challenge-and-probe-your-beliefs/566809/49 "2011-01-10T18:12:29Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > That’s a limit you’ve placed on God. Who says he can’t do the logically impossible? Who says he’s bound by logic (or any other universal law) at all? Two things: 1. If you say that God is not bound by logic, you are essentially saying that God is illogical, which provides a _reason_ not to believe in God. 2. If you say that God can do the logically impossible or that he isn’t bound by logic, what are you saying, precisely? In my mind you are saying that God is engaged in something that is simply incoherent or that God itself is incoherent. So, God is a ‘square circle’ - which is an entity that does not make sense and cannot be conceptualized. If _this_ is true, then it make utterly no sense to say that such an entity exists. You can’t even express what this entity is supposed to be, let alone if such an entity could exist. Could one of God’s characteristics be that he both exists and doesn’t exist? If so, then what does that mean? How can you express positive belief in something that is incoherent? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-believing-christians-will-you-allow-me-to-challenge-and-probe-your-beliefs/566809/50 "2011-01-10T18:17:17Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Here is an imperfect analogy: someone gives you a Christmas present. If you accept it, does that mean you earned it? If you refuse it, do you blame the giver that you didn’t receive it? It isn’t imperfect, it’s entirely useless. If someone gives me a Christmas present that I cannot see, hear, smell, taste, touch or in any way whatsoever perceive, how can I possibly say I DID receive it? I can politely say thank you while making note to find out if they are on their meds, but as far as I’m concerned I haven’t received anything. So that’s my point of view…and since it IS my point of view, does the giver then accept my polite thank you which is the best I can do or recognize that I’m not seeing-hearing-smelling-tasting-touching-perceiving anything at all, get offended that I’m failing to perceive the gift, and take it back? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Bad analogy all around. Let me fix it for you: > You hear from a friend of a friend of a friend that if you come over to my place I’ll give you a new car. The problem is that no one has ever returned from my place, and no one has actually seen any of these new cars. Yes, this is the issue I have about equating _acceptance_ with _belief_, as though they are the same. They are not. I will joyfully accept any salvation I am offered and be grateful to receive it. But I cannot will myself to believe that any of this stuff is true to begin with, so that salvation is being withheld from me as a result of my inability to believe it exists. (according to some, not all) Belief is not a choice I can make, so to hang the salvation of my eternal soul on something I have no control over seems grossly unfair. And now that I review all this, it seems to me that rather than impose some (mildly twisted, actually) test on everyone, demanding they have faith, the loving, fair, reasonable approach would be for God to check in with us AFTER we die and are capable of perceiving all this, presenting the option at that time: accept JC as your personal savior? Okee doke! But to damn me for all time because my fancypants brain that he made finds the idea of all this completely unbelievable is, and I mean no disrespect to those who do believe, cruel and narcissistic to a degree I would hope no genuine God would be subject. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-believing-christians-will-you-allow-me-to-challenge-and-probe-your-beliefs/566809/51 "2011-01-10T18:40:53Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > It isn’t imperfect, it’s entirely useless. If someone gives me a Christmas present that I cannot see, hear, smell, taste, touch or in any way whatsoever perceive, how can I possibly say I DID receive it? I can politely say thank you while making note to find out if they are on their meds, but as far as I’m concerned I haven’t received anything. That’s not the question you asked nor the point of the analogy. I was illustrating the idea that salvation is not something you earn or deserve. > [@stoid](#): > > And now that I review all this, it seems to me that rather than impose some (mildly twisted, actually) test on everyone, demanding they have faith, the loving, fair, reasonable approach would be for God to check in with us AFTER we die and are capable of perceiving all this, presenting the option at that time: accept JC as your personal savior? Okee doke! But to damn me for all time because my fancypants brain that he made finds the idea of all this completely unbelievable is, and I mean no disrespect to those who do believe, cruel and narcissistic to a degree I would hope no genuine God would be subject. I’m sorry, I thought you wanted to have a discussion of what “true believing Christians” believe. If you just want to bash Christianity, I’ll bow out. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-believing-christians-will-you-allow-me-to-challenge-and-probe-your-beliefs/566809/52 "2011-01-10T20:18:36Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > That’s not the question you asked nor the point of the analogy. I was illustrating the idea that salvation is not something you earn or deserve. > > I’m sorry, I thought you wanted to have a discussion of what “true believing Christians” believe. If you just want to bash Christianity, I’ll bow out. It’s not a bash, and I’m sorry you perceive thus, but I said I want to CHALLENGE the beliefs. To me, bashing is belittleing the believer for their belief, which I do not do, nor do I FEEL - but I do, as I"ve said, question how that belief can exist in the kind of curious minds I have always seen the Straight Dope attract. This pool of people is the best shot I’ll ever have I think at inquiring of intelligent, educated people who generally embrace and accept logic, reason and science, how they manage to hold the idea of a jealous, testing God and all that it can include in the same mind that seeks and values accurate information. I’ve only ever encountered the sort of people who deeply believe without having any particular attachment to logic, reason, science, accuracy, etc, and I actually understand that sort of belief much more easily, it makes plenty of sense to me. But I know there are well-respected, even Nobel prize-winning scientists who are simultaneously religious, and in MY OWN understanding of Christianity, which comes frmo people telling me they are Christian and what it means, that’s hard to fathom. Because, as I’ve been saying, there’s things about it that just don’t make sense to me, and I am NOT referring to the fact that it’s supernatural. I don’t reject the supernatural out of hand, I don’t adhere to the idea that nothing beyond what we know through science and direct observation is possible. But the things people tell me about Christianity don’t make sense to me even within a supernatural context, starting with the most fundamental things as I’ve outlined. The thread has had an unanticipated focus on the earned/gift question, and the continued debate over it puzzles me as well, and I have yet to see a satisfying explanation from anyone who who in any way has said anything **like** : “You receive your **freely given gift** of salvation IF/AFTER/WHEN you RECOGNIZE/ACCEPT/BELIEVE that it is being “freely given” to you” of how there can be so much as a single string attached to anything that is being described as “freely given”. I had not imagined that this was going to be an issue, I’d always heard that you are saved after you believe you are saved, and in my understanding of English words, “freely given” means there are no strings involved. And so that unexpected focus turned out to be a powerful example of the internal lack of logic that confounds me. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-believing-christians-will-you-allow-me-to-challenge-and-probe-your-beliefs/566809/53 "2011-01-10T20:19:44Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > That’s not the question you asked nor the point of the analogy. I was illustrating the idea that salvation is not something you earn or deserve. And I was illustrating the idea that if the only way I get it is if I believe I get it, then I have to “earn” it by believing in it. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-believing-christians-will-you-allow-me-to-challenge-and-probe-your-beliefs/566809/54 "2011-01-11T01:58:30Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I stated in the title that I wanted to probe and challenge these beliefs, I didn’t say I just wanted them recited to me. There’s nothing to be challenged or probed when the answer is “I just accept it/I don’t question it/ I don’t wonder about the inconsistencies/ I just feel it” - that’s swell, but it doesn’t leave anything to be probed or challenged, does it? It’s essentially someone saying: “I don’t care if it appears illogical, it feels right to me.” What’s to discuss? The only place to go wiht that is to say whatever works, peace, have a nice day, and I don’t need a thread for that. I’m hoping that someone who does believe in God and Christ as their savior and who ALSO places a high value on things being logical and making sense can explain to me how what they believe does make sense to them in anything other than a mysterious, gut-level feeling way. Hi **Stoid**. I’m sorry that it took me so long to arrive at this thread. I’ve been away from the internet for almost four days due to a complicated set of circumstances that involved a busy schedule, a blown circuit breaker, and winter weather. If not for that, I would have responded much sooner. But nonetheless, here I am. So first of all I have many of the same quibbles with your statement of Christian beliefs that others have had, but see no need to repeat them all here. But if you ever need to post a basic statement of Christian beliefs again, why not use the Apostles Creed or the Nicene Creed? We already have statements of belief, so why bother writing us a new one? But I’m willing to let that point go and get on to answering the questions you asked. So first of all, in the paragraph I quoted above, you appear to be saying that if I “place a high value on things being logical”, then I must answer the question of where God came from with some response other than “He has always existed.” Well, I think this begs the question: what system of logic are you using? I’m not a well-trained logician and my only class on the subject in college was Logic for Computer Scientists, which is largely irrelevant here, but I have studied a bit of the subject outside of academia and I’m familiar with the most important logical systems. I can’t think of any logical system that supports what you’re claiming. In other words, I know of no logical system in which it is asserted that all things must come from something else. Now as for an actual answer to the question, it is given by Saint Thomas Aquinas in the _Summa Theologica_ (available [here](http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1002.htm): > [@](#): > > The second way is from the nature of the efficient cause. In the world of sense we find there is an order of efficient causes. There is no case known (neither is it, indeed, possible) in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible. Now in efficient causes it is not possible to go on to infinity, because in all efficient causes following in order, the first is the cause of the intermediate cause, and the intermediate is the cause of the ultimate cause, whether the intermediate cause be several, or only one. Now to take away the cause is to take away the effect. Therefore, if there be no first cause among efficient causes, there will be no ultimate, nor any intermediate cause. But if in efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, there will be no first efficient cause, neither will there be an ultimate effect, nor any intermediate efficient causes; all of which is plainly false. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God. So that’s the best answer I’ve seen. If you feel it that’s not satisfactory I’d be happy to hear why but would urge you to make sure you can define all the terms as they are used in the philosophical sense first. On the more broad issue of whether I “generally embrace and accept logic, reason and science,” I do, but accept them in the proper place. Logic is an intellectual tool for reaching from premises to conclusions. I accept the tool, but I don’t believe it to be the only tool. And I value the tool, but not above the things tools are used for. Elevating logic above morality and mental health makes no more sense to me than elevating a hammer above a house. In both cases the tool should be properly used to create the later, not valued in itself. The point being put best by Chesterton (and I mention as an aside that if you’re truly interested in encountering an intelligent person who was a true Christian believer, you should read Chesterton, starting with [Orthodoxy, which is available free here](http://www.ccel.org/ccel/chesterton/orthodoxy.v.html)). > [@](#): > > The last thing that can be said of a lunatic is that his actions are causeless. If any human acts may loosely be called causeless, they are the minor acts of a healthy man; whistling as he walks; slashing the grass with a stick; kicking his heels or rubbing his hands. It is the happy man who does the useless things; the sick man is not strong enough to be idle. It is exactly such careless and causeless actions that the madman could never understand; for the madman (like the determinist) generally sees too much cause in everything. The madman would read a conspiratorial significance into those empty activities. He would think that the lopping of the grass was an attack on private property. He would think that the kicking of the heels was a signal to an accomplice. If the madman could for an instant become careless, he would become sane. Every one who has had the misfortune to talk with people in the heart or on the edge of mental disorder, knows that their most sinister quality is a horrible clarity of detail; a connecting of one thing with another in a map more elaborate than a maze. If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment. He is not hampered by a sense of humour or by charity, or by the dumb certainties of experience. He is the more logical for losing certain sane affections. Indeed, the common phrase for insanity is in this respect a misleading one. The madman is not the man who has lost his reason. The madman is the man who has lost everything except his reason. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-believing-christians-will-you-allow-me-to-challenge-and-probe-your-beliefs/566809/55 "2011-01-11T14:15:40Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > So that’s the best answer I’ve seen. If you feel it that’s not satisfactory I’d be happy to hear why but would urge you to make sure you can define all the terms as they are used in the philosophical sense first. Just curious about something: Do you believe that TA came up with this reasoning himself OR do you believe he was divinely inspired. I ask because I’m aware of some Christians who believe the latter (ie, that man cannot autonomously reason). ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-believing-christians-will-you-allow-me-to-challenge-and-probe-your-beliefs/566809/56 "2011-01-11T15:31:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, this is the issue I have about equating acceptance with belief, as though they are the same. They are not. I will joyfully accept any salvation I am offered and be grateful to receive it. But I cannot will myself to believe that any of this stuff is true to begin with, so that salvation is being withheld from me as a result of my inability to believe it exists. (according to some, not all) Belief is not a choice I can make, so to hang the salvation of my eternal soul on something I have no control over seems grossly unfair. Belief is a choice you can make. All of our beliefs are made on the basis of incomplete information. As MLK said"Faith is taking the first step when you do not see the whole staircase". It is an unalterable part of the human condition that we can not have complete and total knowledge of all of the mysteries of God. I am OK with the fact that a being that can create the entire universe out of nothing can not be fully comprehended by someone with my limited intelligence. I doubt that a God that can be totally understood could actually be called God. The amount I can comprehend is enough for me to trust him about what I can not. It is like following a GPS. I have never seen the satellite, the people who program the computers, nor the people who drew the maps. Yet everytime I have used it I have arrived at my destination. Thus I have faith the next time I use it. Christianity has promised that if I gave my life to Christ, I would receive peace, love, and joy. I did and the promise was true. It promised that if I lived my life in accordance with its teachings I would have a better life and I have. There are literally hundreds of millions of people who have had the same experience. I have no idea what will happen to people who lived without hearing the gospel directly, but my experiences with God lead me to have faith that whatever happens will be right. Perhaps your massive intellect is unable to cope with unanswered questions, but incomplete information is a part of life for the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-believing-christians-will-you-allow-me-to-challenge-and-probe-your-beliefs/566809/57 "2011-01-11T15:38:53Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > And I was illustrating the idea that if the only way I get it is if I believe I get it, then I have to “earn” it by believing in it. There are some schools of theology that believe that all people will be saved through Jesus, eventually, whether they believe in Jesus or not. It’s called Universalism. I’m actually on the fence about that myself. It’s certainly an appealing doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-believing-christians-will-you-allow-me-to-challenge-and-probe-your-beliefs/566809/58 "2011-01-11T15:55:29Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > My biggest questions are these: > > 1. Where did the Creator come from? (It/He “just always is/was” is understood to be the default answer for such mystery, you needn’t repeat it here. I’m just hoping for a different answer. Oh, and yes, I’m hip to Mormon theology which leads to the same question, it just goes back further, through more layers of Creators) Its turtle all the way down. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-believing-christians-will-you-allow-me-to-challenge-and-probe-your-beliefs/566809/59 "2011-01-11T16:12:10Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > There are some schools of theology that believe that all people will be saved through Jesus, eventually, whether they believe in Jesus or not. It’s called Universalism. I’m actually on the fence about that myself. It’s certainly an appealing doctrine. The late Madeleine L’Engle explained it essentially like this: as **Triskadecamus** said earlier, “I believe He shall save every soul that will be saved, because of His nature, and His love can only be thwarted by refusing it, and denying it.” L’Engle agrees with that, but notes that if God so chooses (and she couldn’t believe anything less of him), God has all of eternity to work with, to keep on loving those who would refuse and deny - and that since God is God, his capacity for loving is greater than anyone’s capacity for refusal and denial. Consequently, totally consonant with the free will of every mortal person to refuse God’s love in this world and in whatever lies beyond, everyone will ultimately come to willingly and gladly reside in God’s love. To me, this logic resonates with truth and gladness. It’s like a merging of the joy of coming to know the Lord with that of first understanding the principles of the convergence of infinite sequences. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-believing-christians-will-you-allow-me-to-challenge-and-probe-your-beliefs/566809/60 "2011-01-11T16:28:16Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > It isn’t imperfect, it’s entirely useless. If someone gives me a Christmas present that I cannot see, hear, smell, taste, touch or in any way whatsoever perceive… Hmmm…who said it was like that? It certainly wasn’t like that for me. EVERYTHING changed. Imagine that you’d been color-blind, seeing the entire world in black-and-white, and then suddenly one day you could see the full spectrum of color in everything. It was like that. Only _way_ better. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-believing-christians-will-you-allow-me-to-challenge-and-probe-your-beliefs/566809.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-believing-christians-will-you-allow-me-to-challenge-and-probe-your-beliefs/566809.md?page=4)