# True Christianity Is Never Practiced **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 18, 2009, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-christianity-is-never-practiced/510527 "2009-09-18T01:28:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-christianity-is-never-practiced/510527/21 "2009-09-18T14:10:10Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Neither Jews nor Christians have ever believed that all 613 Torah commands apply to Gentiles. Jewish thought was that for Gentiles, keeping the Seven Noahic Laws sufficed. Christ’s death spiritually ended the need for animal sacrifice & the destruction of the Temple ended the possibility of it. The dispersion ended any application of the land-related laws. The VERY Jewish Apostles realized in Acts that Gentiles did not have to “become Jews” (be circumcised & keep kosher) to be saved. Paul extended that principle to Sabbath & festival days. You say you’ve read the Bible in many versions- try Acts to Hebrews one more time and then stand by your post. Ironically, the people most susceptible to your accusation are the “Red-Letter Christians” who claim the direct words of Jesus trump both the OT & the Apostolic Writings. Historic Christians recognize that Jesus spoke in the context of OT Law and that He commissioned His Apostles to apply His teachings to The Church, so that OT Law, Jesus’s Words, and the Apostolic Applications are all the Word of God, full of paradoxes that need to be worked out but able to be ultimately harmonized. > > Believe me, you do NOT want us to start practicing the 613, just like you don’t want Jews to practice them. That’s interesting that Jesus was planning on having an apostle come along after he was a zombie and contradict a bunch of the stuff he said. I’m sure you can point to the chapter and verse where Jesus mentioned this. It seems like it would be an important topic to cover, since striking exactly the right balance between OT law, Jesus’s teachings, and Paul’s writings are essential to getting into heaven. So I’m just sure that Jesus made this clear, I’m sure there’s a verse somewhere where he says “OK, you can forget all that crap in the OT now, including the parts of the OT that say it will never change forever and ever; except keep slaughtering witches for, oh, let’s say the next 1800 years, and also you can keep slaves for, I don’t know, we’ll call it 1900 years to be on the safe side. But the rest is out. Especially the stuff you can make money on like usury laws. And anything else convenient for you to lord over people and make yourself feel superior to them, you can keep that around too. And also, a bunch of this stuff I’m teaching you now is gonna change in like 30 years. One of these days I’ll get around to writing down exactly what you have to believe from the OT, my teachings, and the apostles so you don’t get confused. Not that it’s gonna matter much, because I’m going to come again while some of you are still alive, so it’s pretty much a moot point.” You seem like a smart guy. That fact that you can’t see that you have just chosen which parts of the bible conform to what you already think to follow, and built up an explanatory interpretation justifying it, baffles me. Seriously. How can you not see that? ---
**Author:** ![Xan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@Xan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-christianity-is-never-practiced/510527/22 "2009-09-18T14:16:20Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > If you have a soup kitchen, a food pantry, a private social service or charitable organization in your town then chances are it was started by and/or is staffed by some sort of Christians, ranging from fundamentalist to extremely liberal. This is utter bullshit that Christianity promotes selfishness & uncaring. Of course you’ll find sanctimonious selfish Christians. There is no philosophy so noble & pure that some dickwad can’t find a way to twist it to their own ends, but don’t give me some parallel-universe crap about a world full of noble altruistic unbelievers & few if any devout & self-giving Christians, because it’s just not freakin’ true and you all know it. Altruism is a lie. Every action someone takes is for their own benefit. In this case they think it will win brownie points with God. ---
**Author:** ![the\_first\_supraliminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f475e1/32.png) [@the\_first\_supraliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_first_supraliminal)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-christianity-is-never-practiced/510527/23 "2009-09-18T14:19:23Z")
Yes, you can be “devout” and expect your dog to be in heaven. It’s all a convoluted web fairy tale. Since none of it makes sense, and there is no one single authority, nobody can overrule anybody else about what they believe or whether they think that is Christianity or devout. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-christianity-is-never-practiced/510527/24 "2009-09-18T15:41:06Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > I’m sure you can point to the chapter and verse where Jesus mentioned this. Are you actually asking someone to cite a passage in which Jesus says that the Old Testament law no longer applies? Okay, then, Mark 2:23-28. But anyone who’s read the gospels or any significant portion thereof knows that that’s one passage from among an enormous number in which Jesus directly, specifically overturns the old covenant law. > [@](#): > > You seem like a smart guy. That fact that you can’t see that you have just chosen which parts of the bible conform to what you already think to follow, and built up an explanatory interpretation justifying it, baffles me. Seriously. How can you not see that? We’re unable to see it because it’s not something true, but rather something that you made up in order to make yourself feel good. ---
**Author:** ![Xan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@Xan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-christianity-is-never-practiced/510527/25 "2009-09-18T15:58:36Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > We’re unable to see it because it’s not something true, but rather something that you made up in order to make yourself feel good. Like your entire religion? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-christianity-is-never-practiced/510527/26 "2009-09-18T16:04:10Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Are you actually asking someone to cite a passage in which Jesus says that the Old Testament law no longer applies? Okay, then, Mark 2:23-28. But anyone who’s read the gospels or any significant portion thereof knows that that’s one passage from among an enormous number in which Jesus directly, specifically overturns the old covenant law. Seriously, **ITR** , are you kidding me? You realize that people can see more of my post than what you selectively quoted simply by scrolling up a couple screens, right? Because deliberately taking a quote out of context and then answering a question I did not ask and implying that I am foolish for asking it could be considered a form of lying, which I’m pretty sure would offend the OT, Jesus’s teachings, and the teachings of the apostles, leaving you with no scriptural sanctuary to hide in. But just in case anyone besides you doesn’t realize that my entire post that you selectively quoted from is still there for all to see, I’ll reiterate that what I asked **Friar Ted** for was the chapter and verse where Jesus said that he would be sending some other people along in a few years to contradict what he had just said, and that to understand the bible you would need to have the super secret decoder ring that would let you know which of the mutually exclusive commands from the OT, Jesus’s teaching, and writings of the apostles you were supposed to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-christianity-is-never-practiced/510527/27 "2009-09-18T16:14:53Z")
I could have sworn we’ve had “Why don’t Christians follow all the Old Testament/Torah Mosaic Laws?” threads before, but I can’t find any good examples right now. But I think **FriarTed** gave a pretty good short answer above. The thread title made me think of the famous G. K. Chesterton quote, “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.” I’d have to go re-check the context to be sure what he was specifically referring to, but to the extent that “true Christianity is never practiced,” it is IMHO not that people don’t follow the Torah, but that they don’t live up to (and sometimes don’t even attempt to live up to) Jesus’s difficult commands, such as to “Love your enemies.” ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-christianity-is-never-practiced/510527/28 "2009-09-18T16:23:11Z")
I think Someone in the bible said: “None are righteous, no, not one.” So, it seems to me this is not a particularly new argument. Those judging each other on the basis of righteousness have asked to be judged by that standard. I’ll pass on that one. In your heart, you know evil. Don’t do it. In your heart, you know Love. Do that. Let the Lord do the judging. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Xan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@Xan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-christianity-is-never-practiced/510527/29 "2009-09-18T16:25:52Z")
Depends on your definition of evil. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-christianity-is-never-practiced/510527/30 "2009-09-18T16:31:34Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > That’s interesting that Jesus was planning on having an apostle come along after he was a zombie and contradict a bunch of the stuff he said. I’m sure you can point to the chapter and verse where Jesus mentioned this. It seems like it would be an important topic to cover, since striking exactly the right balance between OT law, Jesus’s teachings, and Paul’s writings are essential to getting into heaven. > > So I’m just sure that Jesus made this clear, I’m sure there’s a verse somewhere where he says “OK, you can forget all that crap in the OT now, including the parts of the OT that say it will never change forever and ever; except keep slaughtering witches for, oh, let’s say the next 1800 years, and also you can keep slaves for, I don’t know, we’ll call it 1900 years to be on the safe side. But the rest is out. Especially the stuff you can make money on like usury laws. And anything else convenient for you to lord over people and make yourself feel superior to them, you can keep that around too. And also, a bunch of this stuff I’m teaching you now is gonna change in like 30 years. One of these days I’ll get around to writing down exactly what you have to believe from the OT, my teachings, and the apostles so you don’t get confused. Not that it’s gonna matter much, because I’m going to come again while some of you are still alive, so it’s pretty much a moot point.” > > You seem like a smart guy. That fact that you can’t see that you have just chosen which parts of the bible conform to what you already think to follow, and built up an explanatory interpretation justifying it, baffles me. Seriously. How can you not see that? **FriarTed** sure does seem like a smart guy. But in all honesty this sure doesn’t strike me as an intelligent post. Your attempt at wit I think tripped you up. Are you able to fashion a cogent argument, using cites? Because this looks like another drive by. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-christianity-is-never-practiced/510527/31 "2009-09-18T16:35:05Z")
> [@Xan](#): > > Depends on your definition of evil. Of course it does. And if I do not know evil, or have no sense of good, how then can I sin, or not sin? I believe you know. I do not need to be convinced. I know, for myself, and cannot convince myself otherwise. My judgment of you has no authority, my judgment of me is all I have available. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Xan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@Xan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-christianity-is-never-practiced/510527/32 "2009-09-18T16:37:09Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > Of course it does. > > And if I do not know evil, or have no sense of good, how then can I sin, or not sin? > > I believe you know. I do not need to be convinced. > > I know, for myself, and cannot convince myself otherwise. > > My judgment of you has no authority, my judgment of me is all I have available. > > Tris By my definition your religion is evil. It encourages people to be docile and slaves. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-christianity-is-never-practiced/510527/33 "2009-09-18T16:37:23Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > Seriously, **ITR** , are you kidding me? You realize that people can see more of my post than what you selectively quoted simply by scrolling up a couple screens, right? Because deliberately taking a quote out of context and then answering a question I did not ask and implying that I am foolish for asking it could be considered a form of lying, which I’m pretty sure would offend the OT, Jesus’s teachings, and the teachings of the apostles, leaving you with no scriptural sanctuary to hide in. > > But just in case anyone besides you doesn’t realize that my entire post that you selectively quoted from is still there for all to see, I’ll reiterate that what I asked **Friar Ted** for was the chapter and verse where Jesus said that he would be sending some other people along in a few years to contradict what he had just said, and that to understand the bible you would need to have the super secret decoder ring that would let you know which of the mutually exclusive commands from the OT, Jesus’s teaching, and writings of the apostles you were supposed to believe. You’re exactly right----I saw all of your post. Every bit of it. And I’m even more unimpressed. You’re now asking cites from **FriarTed** —in spite of the fact that you offered none of your own. (and it was _you_ that responded to _him_) Make your point. (without the juvenile metaphors, please) Use cites to make your point. Fair is fair. If you have something intelligent to share, back it up. I’m quite sure **FriarTed** is capable of responding, if the last couple of your posts are any indication. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-christianity-is-never-practiced/510527/34 "2009-09-18T16:38:26Z")
> [@Xan](#): > > By my definition your religion is evil. It encourages people to be docile and slaves. Well, thanks for offering _your_ definition. We call that _ **witnessing** _ in these parts. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-christianity-is-never-practiced/510527/35 "2009-09-18T16:41:34Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I could have sworn we’ve had “Why don’t Christians follow all the Old Testament/Torah Mosaic Laws?” threads before, but I can’t find any good examples right now. But I think **FriarTed** gave a pretty good short answer above. > > The thread title made me think of the famous G. K. Chesterton quote, “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.” I’d have to go re-check the context to be sure what he was specifically referring to, but to the extent that “true Christianity is never practiced,” it is IMHO not that people don’t follow the Torah, but that they don’t live up to (and sometimes don’t even attempt to live up to) Jesus’s difficult commands, such as to “Love your enemies.” We’ve had a _slew_ of these threads the majority of which deal with homosexuality; attempting to make the point that it is inconsistent to wear mixed thread clothing, eat shell fish and still condemn homosexuality. (all, according to the various threads part of OT requirements) ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-christianity-is-never-practiced/510527/36 "2009-09-18T16:44:49Z")
> [@Xan](#): > > By my definition your religion is evil. It encourages people to be docile and slaves. So, by your definition, what should you do? What action does your definition require, or perhaps suggest to you? Is simply despising me enough, or do you need to silence me? Tris ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-christianity-is-never-practiced/510527/37 "2009-09-18T16:45:12Z")
> [@Xan](#): > > By my definition your religion is evil. It encourages people to be docile and slaves. A Nietzschean? ---
**Author:** ![Xan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@Xan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-christianity-is-never-practiced/510527/38 "2009-09-18T16:49:15Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > So, by your definition, what should you do? What action does your definition require, or perhaps suggest to you? Is simply despising me enough, or do you need to silence me? > > Tris Nothing. I only give my love to those I think deserve it. I think this whole “Love your enemy” is BS. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-christianity-is-never-practiced/510527/39 "2009-09-18T16:54:14Z")
> [@Xan](#): > > Nothing. I only give my love to those I think deserve it. I think this whole “Love your enemy” is BS. How does one deserve to be loved? I know I don’t. Yet I have been loved. I do not understand your definitions. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Xan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@Xan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-christianity-is-never-practiced/510527/40 "2009-09-18T16:56:42Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > How does one deserve to be loved? > > I know I don’t. Yet I have been loved. > > I do not understand your definitions. > > Tris I return what I am given. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-christianity-is-never-practiced/510527.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-christianity-is-never-practiced/510527.md?page=3)