# True? "Democrats would rather have fascism than Bernie Sanders' populism"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2024, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953 "2024-11-29T21:55:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/41 "2024-12-02T01:08:00Z")
Stein and West are tankies, not fascists. There’s a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/42 "2024-12-02T01:25:36Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > And a vote for them in 2024 was a vote for fascism. …nah. Not even close.If we are going to play that game, then Biden’s foreign policy, the increased funding of the police and surveillance state, the fact the US locks up more people per capita than anywhere else in the world AND most of them haven’t been convicted of a crime, the harsh immigration policy, the supreme court ruling that cities can ban people from sleeping and camping in public places, makes the entire US fascist. Here is the Greens policy platform. > **[Platform](https://www.jillstein2024.com/platform)** The Democrats support funding the police, giving millions to fund overseas wars, while the Greens have _animal rights_ on their policy page. A vote for them was a vote for " an intelligent, compassionate approach to the treatment of animals." The reality is that things were already pretty dystopian under Biden and the Democrats. And most Americans were just fine with that. You’ve got the police smashing up student protests, the NYPD is practically a standing army and the LAPD are literally a gang. You’ve got Democrat Mayor’s and Governors proudly demolishing homeless encampments. More people being killed by police in 2023 than in any other year. I’m not a fan of Stein OR West. But the idea that a vote for them is a vote for fascism is absurd. Especially considering the state of America at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/43 "2024-12-02T02:13:38Z")
West aligns himself with [Brother Harlan Crow](https://www.npr.org/2024/06/13/g-s1-4336/justice-clarence-thomas-harlan-crow-trips) - his words. Stein aligns herself with Putin. Whatever their platform says, those tankies are fascist-friendly fascist supporters. Frankly I can’t tell the difference between the US Greens and the Republicans, absent a scanning electron microscope. [Same donor base](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/republican-allies-jill-stein-green-party-democrats-ballots-battleground-states/), same [cuddling with the Russian tyrant](https://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_fullsize/plain/did:plc:kem5cevl5sjpizk4s27cbyig/bafkreigcklxdweolsyotvwfxuhfc73j5z62uwecrs6gkyps7oc7pmfmi6e@jpeg). They are easy to mix up. They both serve the same ends: electing Republicans. I suppose there are some differences. US Greens are less honest than Republicans for example. Ralph Nader promised he wouldn’t campaign in swing states when drumming up funds, then turned around and campaigned in Florida in 2000. But I guess it’s not surprising when you support -through your deeds- an oil man like GW Bush over a committed environmentalist like Al Gore. I’m not particularly angry at Jill Stein, any more than I am at Donald Trump. Trump is who he is. So is Jill Stein. But I oppose both of their policies. The US Greens could play a constructive role in the US, as I believe the [DSA](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Socialists_of_America) does. But they choose not to. They haven’t won a local office since their Minneapolis CIty Council member left in 2022. That makes sense: their priority is electing Republicans at the national level after all, judging from their actions. ETA: Not incidentally, [the US Green Party is no longer affiliated with the global organization of Green Parties](https://www.politico.eu/article/europes-greens-tell-jill-stein-to-pull-out-of-us-election-to-defeat-trump/). I mean sure, Stein isn’t a fascist: she’s a tankie like Stalin who supports fascism until things go south for them. ETA2: Quoting the next post: “Regardless though…showing that some fringe voted for them is not saying anything about the left in general.” Very much agree. But the speaker in the You Tube vid in the OP is fringe. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/44 "2024-12-02T02:16:21Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I’d say support for fascism is a lot higher on the hard left than it is among hard core Democrats. Jill Stein won 0.4% of the popular vote this year (as of ~Nov 7th). Cornel West was not on the ballot in most states but he won 0.2% in Virginia. Pot, meet kettle. You have a weird definition of “fascist” if you think those two are fascists. Regardless though…showing that some fringe voted for them is not saying anything about the left in general. Every side has its fringe element and, when it is this small, I think those people are safely ignored on both sides (maybe they should be on an FBI watch list…this is where the lunatics come from). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/45 "2024-12-02T02:35:07Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > The economy reached a high point under Trump before covid. It was better under Biden this last year. And GDP was better under Biden. The Stock market was better under Biden. Unemployment about the same. Are you just thinking about inflation? Exactly how did it reach a high point under trump? > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > And a vote for them in 2024 was a vote for fascism. Only if by failing to vote for Harris. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/46 "2024-12-02T02:53:42Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Whatever their platform says …thats the thing. People _vote_ for the platform. If people wanted to vote for a party that didn’t support the war on Gaza, the only options were either Stein or West or stay home. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > West aligns himself with [Brother Harlan Crow](https://www.npr.org/2024/06/13/g-s1-4336/justice-clarence-thomas-harlan-crow-trips) - his words. Stein aligns herself with Putin. Biden aligns himself with a literal war criminal, indicted by the [International Criminal Court](https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-state-palestine-icc-pre-trial-chamber-i-rejects-state-israels-challenges) for crimes against humanity and war crimes, he aligns himself with a country that is currently being indicted in the International Court of Justice for genocide. He not only aligns with them, he has funded them, and is protecting them, which makes him, and according to your theory, everybody that supported him, a fascist. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Frankly I can’t tell the difference between the US Greens and the Republicans, absent a scanning electron microscope. Frankly: I can’t see much difference between the Democrats and the Republicans. Both support a genocidal regime. Both fund and support a police state. Both are waging a war on the homeless. Both aren’t doing anything about the prison population. The Democrats aren’t fully fascist though, I’ll give you that. But they are virtually indistinguishable from the pre-tea-party Republicans. They both serve the same ends: ensuring the rich and powerful get even richer and more powerful. The Greens and the likes of West are literally nothing in the US political machine. Literally nothing. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > [Same donor base](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/republican-allies-jill-stein-green-party-democrats-ballots-battleground-states/), same [cuddling with the Russian tyrant](https://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_fullsize/plain/did:plc:kem5cevl5sjpizk4s27cbyig/bafkreigcklxdweolsyotvwfxuhfc73j5z62uwecrs6gkyps7oc7pmfmi6e@jpeg). Talking about cuddling with [tyrants](https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/2024-07-25T172915Z_1173861154_RC2H29A1VOL9_RTRMADP_3_ISRAEL-PALESTINIANS-USA-NETANYAHU-BIDEN-1721930172.jpg?resize=770%2C513&quality=80). Do you have any opinion on the impact of organizations like AIPAC had on the last election? Because for all the talk about Russia, nobody wants to talk about Israeli influence on the elections at all. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/47 "2024-12-02T03:03:06Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > People _vote_ for the platform. They do? Most people have no fucking idea of what the platform says. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Biden aligns himself with a literal war criminal, So has trump, in fact trump and Netanyahu are buddies, whereas Biden has criticized Netanyahu and his policies. So, no Biden is not aligned with Netanyahu. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > he aligns himself with a country that is currently being indicted in the International Court of Justice for genocide. Not genocide, in fact the ICC failed to bring that charge- _On the basis of material presented by the Prosecution covering the period until 20 May 2024, the Chamber could not determine that all elements of the crime against humanity of extermination were met._ So the ICC disagrees with you on “genocide” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/48 "2024-12-02T03:03:51Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I’d say support for fascism is a lot higher on the hard left than it is among hard core Democrats. In my experience the “hard left” doesn’t see a real difference between fascists and the Democrats, and quite a few are accelerationists who think that what the world needs is a good dose of fascism to clear the way to the World Revolution and a glorious socialist future. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/49 "2024-12-02T03:05:35Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In my experience the “hard left” doesn’t see a real difference between fascists and the Democrats, Many of them have bought into kremlin propaganda- “both sides are just as bad”. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/50 "2024-12-02T03:14:56Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > People _vote_ for the platform. No they don’t. Most people don’t even know party platforms even exist. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/51 "2024-12-02T03:15:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Many of them have bought into kremlin propaganda- “both sides are just as bad”. Many of them are outright crypto-Russian nationalists, who look at modern fascist Russia and see socialism because they just can’t accept that “Russia” and “Socialism” are not synonyms. And who see fascism as a weapon to punish America with. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/52 "2024-12-02T03:16:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Many of them are outright crypto-Russian nationalists, who look at modern fascist Russia and see socialism because they just can’t accept that “Russia” and “Socialism” are not synonyms. And who see fascism as a weapon to punish America with. Not gonna argue with that. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/53 "2024-12-02T03:17:47Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No they don’t. Most people don’t even know party platforms even exist. Yeah, this. Party platforms are something of an archaic concept, both in that people pay no attention to them and parties put little if any effort into implementing them. I think they are kept around mostly as tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/54 "2024-12-02T03:21:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > They do? Most people have no fucking idea of what the platform says. …the Greens and West opposed funding the war in Gaza. That was a significant policy, probably the one that got the most airplay. > [@DrDeth](#): > > So has trump, in fact trump and Netanyahu are buddies, whereas Biden has criticized Netanyahu and his policies. Yes! If voting for Stein is a vote for a fascist: then you are ALL voting for fascists. > [@DrDeth](#): > > So, no Biden is not aligned with Netanyahu. LOL > [@DrDeth](#): > > in fact the ICC failed to bring that charge- I said the International Court of Justice: _not_ the International Criminal Court. > [@DrDeth](#): > > So the ICC disagrees with you on “genocide” It will be _years_ before the ICJ make a decision. But they have mandated Israel to "[end its occupation, dismantle its settlements, provide full reparations to Palestinian victims and facilitate the return of displaced people."](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/experts-hail-icj-declaration-illegality-israels-presence-occupied#:~:text=The%20Court%20added%20that%20Israel's,the%20return%20of%20displaced%20people.) > [@Smapti](#): > > No they don’t. So you are imagining people voted for Stein because she’s a fascist aligned with a tyrant? Is that also why people voted for Biden? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/55 "2024-12-02T03:23:55Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > If voting for Stein is a vote for a fascist: then you are ALL voting for fascists. Given the way the US electoral system works, voting for Stein _was_ voting for fascism because it amounted to a vote for Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/56 "2024-12-02T03:31:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Given the way the US electoral system works, voting for Stein _was_ voting for fascism because it amounted to a vote for Trump. …it didn’t really. Michigan was a direct result of the Democrats giving Muslims and pro-Palestinian supporters the finger. And America is supposed to be a democracy. Land of the free. Home of the brave. If people want to run for President they should be allowed to, and if people want to vote for them that shouldn’t be a problem either. Harris lost because more people voted for Trump, voter suppression, and ultimately she ran a terrible campaign. There will ALWAYS be people that vote third party. But there were many, many more that just chose to stay home. It’s the job of the Democrats to recognize that and address that. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/57 "2024-12-02T03:35:57Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Michigan was a direct result of the Democrats giving Muslims and pro-Palestinian supporters the finger. They had no option there, _any_ position they took was going to alienate voters. If they made a mistake it was assuming pro-Muslim and Palestinian people _wouldn’t_ vote for the persecution of Muslims and Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/58 "2024-12-02T03:44:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They had no option there …yeah, they did, actually. A moderate position probably would have been enough.It was what Muslim leadership were pleading for them to do. Instead, they sent Torres, Clinton and Cheney. It was a very clear _rejection_ of a moderate stance. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > If they made a mistake it was assuming pro-Muslim and Palestinian people _wouldn’t_ vote for the persecution of Muslims and Palestinians. The mistake was thinking they _deserved_ the vote, and didn’t have to _earn_ it. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/59 "2024-12-02T04:41:55Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The mistake was thinking they _deserved_ the vote, and didn’t have to _earn_ it. What does this mean? One side (Trump) will be happy to bulldoze Gaza and make it Mar-a-Lago Mediterranean. But Harris didn’t _earn_ it? WTF? I will never understand this self-destructive stance. This goes to the OP where some people have this weird notion that Sanders would be the end of all things and must be opposed at all costs! Never thinking of the alternative they let in the door. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/60 "2024-12-02T05:41:59Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Given the way the US electoral system works, voting for Stein _was_ voting for fascism because it amounted to a vote for Trump. In effect, I agree. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953.md?page=4)