# True? "Democrats would rather have fascism than Bernie Sanders' populism"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2024, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953 "2024-11-29T21:55:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/61 "2024-12-02T06:11:58Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > One side (Trump) will be happy to bulldoze Gaza and make it Mar-a-Lago Mediterranean. …happy to debate this further in this thread. > [@What will happen in Gaza now that Trump won?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762): > > Will the Palestinians be wiped out? Will they be forced out of Gaza to other countries? Will the West bank be fully subsumed? How will a Trump Presidency affect the current conflict? Because it should be plainly obvious that BOTH sides are happy to bulldoze Gaza. Its being bulldozed right now under Biden. It would have continued if Harris got elected. There would have been no change on the ground in Gaza no matter who won the election. And the people in Michigan knew it. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > But Harris didn’t _earn_ it? WTF? No, she didn’t earn it. Again: a subject for a different thread. But generally that’s how politics work in a democracy. You earn people’s votes. You don’t get them by default. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I will never understand this self-destructive stance. The “self-destructive stance” was having the wrong people in charge of the Harris campaign. Because it was a disaster. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/62 "2024-12-02T06:33:48Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The “self-destructive stance” was having the wrong people in charge of the Harris campaign. The “self-destructive stance” was was these people deciding to help elect bigots who will persecute _them, personally._ Harming yourself is literally the definition of self destructiveness. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/63 "2024-12-02T06:38:26Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > I generally agree with you, except on this key point. Americans have always been willing to vote in ways that directly hurt their economic interests. Looking past the most immediate example, Americans have long been willing to hurt themselves if it also hurts the object of their racist views. Most of the MAGA message is “racism, fuck yeah!” As long as it hurts those people more, it sells. I question this. I feel that most bigots believe that voting along bigoted lines will benefit them economically. The mentality is that white men are superior to women and non-whites. So they should “naturally” be in charge of things and be receiving the associated rewards. That’s the way the society is supposed to be. And to prove this to themselves, they look back a few decades in history and see that was the way things were. Then the liberals came along with their civil rights and feminism and affirmative action. They set up a system that “artificially” pushes women and non-whites above their natural status. And by doing so, this gave those women and non-whites rewards that should have be given to the white men that deserved them. All the bigots are trying to do is remove this artificial system that the liberals created and restore the natural order (ie they want to make America great again). When that happens women and non-whites will sink back down to their natural level and white men will rise back up to their natural level. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/64 "2024-12-02T06:51:31Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The “self-destructive stance” was was these people deciding to help elect bigots who will persecute _them, personally._ Harming yourself is literally the definition of self destructiveness. …I think its a bit cruel to expect people to vote for the people who are responsible for the death of many of your family and friends, the destruction of their homeland, and who had pledged to continue it. But again: thats a subject for another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/65 "2024-12-02T06:57:09Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I think its a bit cruel to expect people to vote for the people who are responsible for the death of many of your family and friends, the destruction of their homeland, and who had pledged to continue it. As opposed to the people who will do all of that but harder, _plus_ go after _them personally._ Also, Biden and company were not responsible for any of that, Israel is. They can be criticized for supporting Israel but they never had the power to _stop_ it in the first place. And they certainly didn’t tell it to act the way it is. There was never going to be a “stop Israel from killing Palestinians” option in the US election, because it’s not possible for the US to do with a nuclear armed country. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/66 "2024-12-02T07:12:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > As opposed to the people who will do all of that but harder, _plus_ go after _them personally._ …the only reason I bought this up in this thread was because Stein was accused of palling around with tyrants. The reality is that they are ALL palling around with tyrants. That’s just America. I’m sorry to say: but that’s just _who you are_. You’ve just decided that _this_ tyrant is your friend, and _that_ tyrant is not. Thats how its always worked. And its become clearer than ever, as this thread points out, you would much rather embrace fascism than reject it. And yes, under Biden they _were_ being targeted personally. In Democrat states, in “left-leaning” institutions. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Also, Biden and company were not responsible for any of that, Israel is. They can be criticized for supporting Israel but they never had the power to _stop_ it in the first place. And they certainly didn’t tell it to act the way it is. I disagree: and if you start another thread, I’d be happy to debate it with you there. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/67 "2024-12-02T07:13:36Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And yes, under Biden they _were_ being targeted personally. In Democrat states, in “left-leaning” institutions. “Democrat states”? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/68 "2024-12-02T07:22:40Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > No, she didn’t earn it. Again: a subject for a different thread. But generally that’s how politics work in a democracy. You earn people’s votes. You don’t get them by default. Given we had two choices (there were others but it was really two choices for all intents and purposes) this suggests that Trump did “earn” it. An odd stance if your main concern is the fate of Palestinians. And, while many on this board seem to really dislike Sanders I’d be surprised if any would choose Trump instead if that had been their two choices. Again, if the fate of Palestinians is your main issue any choice other than Trump would be better for them. Maybe not great or ideal but better. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/69 "2024-12-02T09:06:20Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The reality is that they are ALL palling around with tyrants. That’s just America. That’s just the _world._ Nothing special about America there. And it doesn’t change the fact that helping get Trump elected _was_ genuinely self destructive. Foreign affairs have nothing to do with it. **EDIT:** Also, helping Trump get into power is _also_ “palling around with tyrants”. Glass houses and stones time. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/70 "2024-12-02T10:19:54Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nothing special about America there. …but we are talking about America. And if voting for Stein meant a vote for fascists, then the same applies to Biden. Let’s not pretend that a vote for Stein is such a heinous crime when much of the world consider Biden a war criminal. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And it doesn’t change the fact that helping get Trump elected _was_ genuinely self destructive. They didn’t help get Trump elected. That’s on the people that voted for Trump, that’s on the people in and around the Trump campaign that enabled voter suppression, that’s on the Democrats for running an abysmal campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/71 "2024-12-02T10:26:05Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Given we had two choices (there were others but it was really two choices for all intents and purposes) this suggests that Trump did “earn” it. …well, in part he did. That’s simply how elections work. But with Trump: voter suppression _also_ played a part. He didn’t earn anything there. But yes: with elections, you try and get people to vote for you. Thats ths point. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Again, if the fate of Palestinians is your main issue any choice other than Trump would be better for them. Again: if you want to debate this, I’m happy to do it in another thread. My position is that the fate of the Palestinians would be the same regardless of who won the election. And I don’t think that many Palestinian supporters voted for Trump. Most that did vote would have voted for Harris and those that didn’t just stayed home. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/72 "2024-12-02T10:35:05Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And if voting for Stein meant a vote for fascists, then the same applies to Biden. Let’s not pretend that a vote for Stein is such a heinous crime when much of the world consider Biden a war criminal. It has nothing to do with “heinous”, it has to do with how the US electoral system works mechanically. Choosing to vote for Stein over Biden means that Trump gets an advantage, not that Stein has any chance of getting elected. Which means that voting for Stein _was_ supporting the fascists, regardless of what may have been intended. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/73 "2024-12-02T11:29:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It has nothing to do with “heinous”, it has to do with how the US electoral system works mechanically. …your argument _isn’t with me_. I understand how the system works. Voting for Stein didn’t give Trump any advantage at all this election. And even if it did, that could have been negated if Harris had run a better campaign. Every election will have third parties. No matter how much you sneer at them, they aren’t going to go away. But if the reports are true, and that Harris had internal polling that suggested that [she never had a chance](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/11/27/kamala-harris-advisers-internal-polling/76626278007/), then none of this matters anyway. It was a doomed campaign. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Which means that voting for Stein _was_ supporting the fascists In the same way as voting for Biden was supporting the fascists. It might be reassuring to be able to point to Stein and put some measure of blame on her for the election. But the reality is much more nuanced than that. They’ve been putting the pieces together for this takeover for decades. And the Democrats forgot all of the lessons they learned from Hillary and from Biden and barely put up a fight. The Democrat establishment doesn’t stand for anything. Go listen to any of the advisors to the Harris campaign that have been speaking out for the last few weeks and hear how completely contemptuously they speak about the American public. If you want to point the finger at anybody, point it at them. They live in a different world. Which brings it back to this thread. I don’t think Bernie style populism is the way forward here. Because I don’t think democracy in America will be the same any more. You had “the resistance” after Clinton lost. But that was largely a grassroots movement organised by the activist class: and the Democrats have spent the last four years beating them up and shutting them down. A win in the midterms may change things. Who knows. But the Democrats are going to struggle. Not only will they be fighting literal fascism. but nobody in the establishment actually think they got anything wrong. They think they had the right strategy. And nobody will fall on their swords. So as I’ve predicted in other threads, I think we will see a split. I can’t see how people like Ilhan Omar or Rashida Tlaib can stay in a party that actively conspires against them, that have someone like Fetterman in their ranks. “The big tent” was always going to eventually fail and I think its going to happen. Short-term thats going to be disastrous. But there is a longer game to play. There needs to be an _actual resistance_. And its a part that the Democrats aren’t capable of playing. They are part of the “machine.” They will fall in line with the Republicans. We are already seeing signs of that. There will be a new style of left-wing populism that will grow over the next few years. It won’t be lead by Bernie. It will be _revolutionary_. And I hate to say it: but probably bloodshed. People throw the word “fascist” around too lightly. Most don’t really understand that its actually here, that it’s a global phenomenon, and it won’t be defeated without people dying. And it makes this stuff about Stein look so ridiculously _petty_. She didn’t have any real impact on this election at all. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/74 "2024-12-02T11:35:51Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > In the same way as voting for Biden was supporting the fascists. No, because voting for Biden was both impossible in this election, and because the Democrats aren’t the fascists. As for talk of a revolution, a revolution against a nuclear armed fascist state would result in a radioactive wasteland and the death of most of the population, if it was possible at all. Because they _would_ nuke their own country before giving up power, just like Hitler wanted to see Germany destroyed if he couldn’t rule it. ---
**Author:** ![Ash\_trav511](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/edb3f5/32.png) [@Ash\_trav511](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ash_trav511)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/75 "2024-12-02T11:39:44Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Again, if the fate of Palestinians is your main issue any choice other than Trump would be better for them. True. But then a muslim democrat mayor in Michigan endorsed Trump (primarily over the Palestinian issue) saying “he is a man of principles”. Shocking but true… > **[Mayor of only Muslim-run city in US endorses Trump for election](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/9/23/mayor-of-only-muslim-governed-us-city-endorses-trump)** > > Amer Ghalib, who leads city in battleground state of Michigan, says Republican is ‘right choice’ despite disagreements. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/76 "2024-12-02T11:58:50Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > and because the Democrats aren’t the fascists. …the Democrats took money from the tyrants. And they support the tyrants. Which is all that is being alleged about Stein is it not? It wasn’t the policy platform. Oh, and she had the _gall_ to stand for election in the _land of the free_. How DARE she. In a democracy, of all things! That goes against everything that America stands for. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > As for talk of a revolution, a revolution against a nuclear armed fascist state would result in a radioactive wasteland and the death of most of the population, if it was possible at all. I’m not arguing that its going to end well. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because they _would_ nuke their own country before giving up power, just like Hitler wanted to see Germany destroyed if he couldn’t rule it. Yeah, well, fascism is messy. And nobody is coming to rescue you. We are at the denial stage of grief. If you accept that Trump will be fascist, then you either fight it, or you just accept it and learn to live with it, or you die. I suspect most Americans will take the middle option. That’s what I would probably do. I’m 50. I can’t get out of the house much any more due to my health. I’ll keep my head down and mouth shut and hope they don’t come for me. But to follow your analogy: you are about to be ruled by the equivalent of Hitler. Think about what that entails. Most people will be cowards, like me. But people _will_ fight back. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/77 "2024-12-02T12:00:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In my experience the “hard left” doesn’t see a real difference between fascists and the Democrats, and quite a few are accelerationists who think that what the world needs is a good dose of fascism to clear the way to the World Revolution and a glorious socialist future. Sadly I’ve encountered a lot of these people too. They are both extremely angry and fucking delusional. I also have views on the Democratic approach to Gaza but will save it for another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/78 "2024-12-02T12:03:56Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …the Democrats took money from the tyrants. And they support the tyrants. Which is all that is being alleged about Stein is it not? It wasn’t the policy platform No, what is being pointed out (not alleged) is that voting for her helped elect Trump. In a small way, but it did. Her positions are fairly irrelevant to the issue, as are who the Democrats took or gave money to. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/79 "2024-12-02T12:54:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, what is being pointed out (not alleged) is that voting for her helped elect Trump. …no, what I was responding to was pretty clear. " [Same donor base](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/republican-allies-jill-stein-green-party-democrats-ballots-battleground-states/), same [cuddling with the Russian tyrant](https://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_fullsize/plain/did:plc:kem5cevl5sjpizk4s27cbyig/bafkreigcklxdweolsyotvwfxuhfc73j5z62uwecrs6gkyps7oc7pmfmi6e@jpeg)." I was talking about Biden’s donor base: I was talking about “cuddling with overseas tyrants.” That was what I was addressing: nothing more. If we are judging Stein by the donor base and who they cosy up to, then we can judge Biden on those same standards. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/80 "2024-12-02T14:18:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Exactly how did it reach a high point under trump? Sorry, I meant a peak, not the highest ever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953.md?page=5)