# True? "Democrats would rather have fascism than Bernie Sanders' populism"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2024, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953 "2024-11-29T21:55:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/101 "2024-12-03T03:49:05Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …who are you imagining is doing the shooting? The police, the military, and fascist death squads. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/102 "2024-12-03T04:10:38Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The police, the military, and fascist death squads. …gotcha. I talked about revolution before. This indeed would be the tipping point. You think it will result in a “radioactive wasteland.” I’m not sure we will. I’m not sure your scenario will play out. Because as I said: they are moving towards a feudal model, not a mass-murdering dictatorship. That doesn’t mean there won’t be lots of mass-murdering. I’m sure there will be plenty of mass-murdering to go around. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/103 "2024-12-03T04:10:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > “Pivoting” won’t save them, anyone who ever supported the Democrats for any reason will be permanently on the list of political enemies to be crushed. [“Before 2011, Trump donated more money to Democrats than Republicans.”](https://ballotpedia.org/History_of_Donald_Trump%27s_political_donations) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/104 "2024-12-03T04:25:11Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Because as I said: they are moving towards a feudal model, not a mass-murdering dictatorship. No; that’s what the rich backers _think_ they will get. It’s not what they will _actually_ get. They are ignoring that they are destroying the system that makes them powerful, safe and privileged in the first place. Heck, even if we call it a feudal model - wealthy merchants were _despised_ under feudalism. What mattered was how much _force_ you had, not how much money. Waving money at people gives you no power if they can just cut your throat and take it. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/105 "2024-12-03T04:42:58Z")
Considering that Banquet\_Bear appears to my reading to be one of them (at least as far as Gaza goes, which is a key issue for him, don’t you know), that makes the current back and forth with Der\_Trihs kind of ironically amusing. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/106 "2024-12-03T05:06:58Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Considering that Banquet\_Bear appears to my reading to be one of them …one of what exactly? Buying into “kremlin propaganda”? What a load of rubbish. My position is backed up by the International Criminal Court, the International Court of Justice, and every single humanitarian agency on the planet. It has nothing to do with the Kremlin. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > o; that’s what the rich backers _think_ they will get. It’s what they _will_ be getting. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/107 "2024-12-03T05:20:20Z")
No, one who believes that, at least in terms of Gaza in specific, both sides are just as bad. I didn’t intend to say anything about why you think so. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/108 "2024-12-03T06:33:42Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > No, one who believes that, at least in terms of Gaza in specific, both sides are just as bad. …I make the case for that here: > [@What will happen in Gaza now that Trump won?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762/11): > > …I take no pleasure in writing this post. First off: it’s pretty important to understand, before we look at what could happen under Trump, what is going on, right now, under the Biden administration. Here is an open letter from the Inter-Agency Standing Committee, 15 UN and Humanitarian agencies that include (among others) OCHA, Oxfam, UNICEF and WHO. The very last fire engine in the north was destroyed a couple of weeks ago. Civil defence has ceased to operate. That means when a building is… If you disagree, feel free to jump into that thread and show me where I’m wrong. > [@Leaper](#): > > I didn’t intend to say anything about why you think so. But you _did_ when you made reference to a post that said “many of them have bought into kremlin propaganda.” If you didn’t mean me: then I’ll ask you politely to state that explicitly. I’ll tell you right now: this _isn’t_ why I think so. The conclusion of many historians and international experts in international law and humanitarian agencies are it’s a genocide. It started under Biden with his explicit support, it will continue under Trump. Northern Gaza has been cut off for two months now. It’s being systematically cleared in preparation for annexation. All under Biden. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/109 "2024-12-03T07:02:53Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’ll tell you right now: this _isn’t_ why I think so. The conclusion of many historians and international experts in international law and humanitarian agencies are it’s a genocide. It started under Biden with his explicit support, it will continue under Trump. Northern Gaza has been cut off for two months now. It’s being systematically cleared in preparation for annexation. All under Biden. Under _Benjamin Netanyahu._ Not Biden. You could replace Biden with somebody rabidly pro-Palestinian and anti-Israel, and it would have only minor effects on what is happening there. Biden’s not the President of _Israel._ ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/110 "2024-12-03T07:21:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Under _Benjamin Netanyahu._ Not Biden. You could replace Biden with somebody rabidly pro-Palestinian and anti-Israel, and it would have only minor effects on what is happening there. Biden’s not the President of _Israel._ …so you agree with me. There won’t be any difference under Biden or under Trump. Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/111 "2024-12-03T07:39:19Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …so you agree with me. There won’t be any difference under Biden or under Trump. No; it’s easy to makes things worse than better, and Biden was likely actually trying to restrain them somewhat. Under Trump they’ll be able to burn the entire population alive on international television and he’ll just cheer it on. While rounding up Palestinians and Muslims _here_ for disposal. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/112 "2024-12-03T07:48:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Under Trump they’ll be able to burn the entire population alive on international television and he’ll just cheer it on. …under Biden they’ve committed what many people consider a genocide on live television and many people, including many Democrats, have just cheered it on. They’ve shot children in the head. Committed mass slaughters every single day. And are ethnic cleansing in the north. You can’t have it both ways. Either Biden and Trump have only minor effects on what is happening there, or not. The reality is that Biden didn’t hold Israel to account. The very _least_ he could have done was accept the ICC ruling. He couldn’t even do that. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/113 "2024-12-03T07:53:21Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Either Biden and Trump have only minor effects on what is happening there, or not. You are simply ignoring what I said; that it’s much easier to cause harm than to stop it. Nobody can stop Israel, but they can certainly encourage and aid it. Biden isn’t sending American troops at least. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/114 "2024-12-03T07:53:33Z")
I honestly have no idea what role “Kremlin propaganda” has or hasn’t in your beliefs. Nobody is immune, and the best propaganda can be completely true, so it doesn’t say anything about you or about the rightness of actions in Palestine. Anyway, given the OP, I wonder if what’s best for Palestinians is even relevant. The quote is obviously about domestic issues, and you can’t deny it’ll be worse for Americans under Trump, even if you don’t care as much about that as you do about Gaza (no judgement either way), so whether it’ll be worse for Israel or Palestine strikes me as a hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/115 "2024-12-03T07:57:32Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You are simply ignoring what I said; that it’s much easier to cause harm than to stop it. …you are ignoring what I said: that things are catastrophic under Biden and they will be catastrophic under Trump. The degree of catastrophic won’t really matter. Because, as you said, Netanyahu’s in charge. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/116 "2024-12-03T08:03:26Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > I honestly have no idea what role “Kremlin propaganda” has or hasn’t in your beliefs. …then you shouldn’t have linked to that post. I have NO idea how much Israeli propaganda has or hasn’t in your belief. But I know that they had a significant impact on the election. I know that Palestinian voices have been silenced up and down the country. But I’m not here implying that it had anything to do with your post, am I. Because nobody is immune, right? > [@Leaper](#): > > The quote is obviously about domestic issues But the video was substantially _about Gaza_. She literally opened the video talking about Gaza’s impact on domestic issues.The quote in the OP needs Gaza to put it in context. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/117 "2024-12-03T08:04:43Z")
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**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953/118 "2024-12-03T08:06:14Z")
This topic has moved off-topic badly. It is closed. I will review it further in the morning. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-democrats-would-rather-have-fascism-than-bernie-sanders-populism/1010953.md?page=5)