# True faith is wondrous to behold (Pastor shot dead) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 8, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-faith-is-wondrous-to-behold-pastor-shot-dead/488752 "2009-03-08T19:01:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-faith-is-wondrous-to-behold-pastor-shot-dead/488752/1 "2009-03-08T19:01:53Z")
> [@](#): > > The Rev. Fred Winters was at the pulpit at the First Baptist Church in Maryville, Ill. at 8:15 a.m. local time when a man “walked down the aisle of the church,” approached the pulpit and shot Winters in the chest with a .45 caliber handgun. [Quote without comment:] (['No One Can Fathom a Motive': Pastor Shot During Service - ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=7033937&page=2)) > [@](#): > > “Our great God is not surprised by this, or anything,” Nate Adams [executive director of the Illinois Baptist State Association] said. “That He allows evil and free will to have their way in tragedies like this is a mystery in many ways. But we know we can trust Him no matter what, and draw close to Him in any circumstances. Let’s draw closer to Him and to one another during this terrible tragedy, and renew our faith and obedience to His purposes for however many days we have remaining to serve Him.” ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-faith-is-wondrous-to-behold-pastor-shot-dead/488752/2 "2009-03-08T19:20:59Z")
I’m not really sure I see your point, **Musicat**. Can you expand? Eludicate? Elaborate? Do ANYTHING to explain why this is anything other than a tragedy? People die. Sometimes they die violently. When that happens, those who care for them often turn to religious doctrine in an effort to make sense of a sensless world and thus provide comfort to themselves and to others. I’m pretty much an atheist, but I can understand this impulse and am not vexed by it. Why does it bother you? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-faith-is-wondrous-to-behold-pastor-shot-dead/488752/3 "2009-03-08T19:27:24Z")
My impression is not that **Musicat** was trying to say the shooting itself meant anything, but was struck by the self-contradiction in the quote from the director of Illinois Baptist State Association. To wit: > [@](#): > > That He allows evil and free will to have their way in tragedies like this is a mystery in many ways. But we know we can trust Him no matter what, and draw close to Him in any circumstances. The second sentence contradicts the first sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-faith-is-wondrous-to-behold-pastor-shot-dead/488752/4 "2009-03-08T19:30:54Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Why does it bother you? Where did the OP say he or she was bothered by it? My own observation is that it’s a good example of non-falsifiable belief. Trust Him to do what? No matter what happens, when the world goes on as if there’s no higher power doing anything whatsoever, then the bad shit is chalked up to free will. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-faith-is-wondrous-to-behold-pastor-shot-dead/488752/5 "2009-03-08T19:32:33Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > My impression is not that **Musicat** was trying to say the shooting itself meant anything, but was struck by the self-contradiction in the quote from the director of Illinois Baptist State Association. To wit: > > The second sentence contradicts the first sentence. Well, yeah. But when people are grieving they say stupid things, and do stupid things. It’s possible that the person quoted would have recognized the inherent contradiction of his statements if he weren’t shell-shocked. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-faith-is-wondrous-to-behold-pastor-shot-dead/488752/6 "2009-03-08T19:34:22Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Where did the OP say he or she was bothered by it? > > My own observation is that it’s a good example of non-falsifiable belief. Trust Him to do what? No matter what happens, when the world goes on as if there’s no higher power doing anything whatsoever, then the bad shit is chalked up to free will. _Bother_ may have been the wrong word. But the very act of starting a thread about it implies that 'Cat thinks something in either hte event itself or the news coverage about the event is troublesome or noteworthy. ---
**Author:** ![Khampelf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Khampelf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khampelf)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-faith-is-wondrous-to-behold-pastor-shot-dead/488752/7 "2009-03-08T20:32:24Z")
Well probably God mused to himself. “You know, I’d like the Rev. Fred Winters up here, like right now.” Hmmmm. OK, I’ll put the idea in the head of that whacko who keeps praying for a burgler to break in that he needs to shoot a preacher right now. That’ll do it. Now, are there any toddlers walking unattended near canals 'bout now? ETA - God is a maniac. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-faith-is-wondrous-to-behold-pastor-shot-dead/488752/8 "2009-03-08T20:46:54Z")
> [@Khampelf](#): > > ETA - God is a maniac. More like God is a sadistic psychopath, who enjoys tormenting his children. He preaches love and compassion, but every so often he’ll allow one of his children to get shot dead with no provocation, as if God is sneering to himself, “Let’s let those puny humans figure THIS one out! Muahahaha!” It’s no surprise that people who enjoy harming other people are attracted to Christianity, because it’s God himself who fuels and enables their despicable, destructive desires. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-faith-is-wondrous-to-behold-pastor-shot-dead/488752/9 "2009-03-08T20:53:59Z")
Well, I wouldn’t single out Christianity. Let’s say religion in general, mmkay? Me, I’m leaning toward agnosticism or just plain nothing, but I do know that man is foolish to ascribe to God that which should be fully man’s. (paraphrased from some famous dude/writing). Another thought does occur to me: perhaps the Baptist preacher man thinks to meet chaos with chaos? Here is a senseless and useless crime, let’s try to explain it with a senseless and useless platitude? Just a thought. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-faith-is-wondrous-to-behold-pastor-shot-dead/488752/10 "2009-03-08T21:33:44Z")
I don’t see the contradiction. It sounds like he’s saying “I don’t always get God’s reasoning, but I trust him nonetheless” (perhaps implying that God understands things humans never will, but that doesn’t mean God is bad). It’s like someone asking “Do you trust me? Close your eyes.” – you might not know what’s going on at first, but you trust the individual enough to do it anyway. Some [del]Christians[/del] people just have their eyes shut very tightly for very long periods of time. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-faith-is-wondrous-to-behold-pastor-shot-dead/488752/11 "2009-03-08T21:36:46Z")
Trust him to do what? The dude is saying God won’t stop evil but you should trust him anyway. If he won’t stop evil (and God is actually the creator and sustainer of all evil. All evil is God’s will), then how does it make sense to trust him? If you can’t trust God to stop evil, then what good is he? ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-faith-is-wondrous-to-behold-pastor-shot-dead/488752/12 "2009-03-08T21:41:20Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Trust him to do what? The dude is saying God won’t stop evil but you should trust him anyway. If he won’t stop evil (and God is actually the creator and sustainer of all evil. All evil is God’s will), then how does it make sense to trust him? If you can’t trust God to stop evil, then what good is he? You would be trusting that evil exists and occurs for a good reason, even if that reason cannot be ascertained by mortals. “Why bad things happen to good people”, while relevant, is sorta sidestepping the main issue in this context: “I don’t know why, but I think God does and I choose to trust his judgment.” ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-faith-is-wondrous-to-behold-pastor-shot-dead/488752/13 "2009-03-08T21:41:44Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The dude is saying God won’t stop evil but you should trust him anyway. If he won’t stop evil (and God is actually the creator and sustainer of all evil. All evil is God’s will), then how does it make sense to trust him? If you can’t trust God to stop evil, then what good is he? My point exactly. If God’s so elusive, how can we trust his promise of heaven in the afterlife? I’m more inclined to believe such a God is actually a demon, a spiritual predator who feasts on human souls. In such a case, it would behoove people to stay as far away from God as possible – trust in yourself, and your own senses, and discover for yourself what the truth really is. Once the truth is on your side, there’s not much that can stop you. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-faith-is-wondrous-to-behold-pastor-shot-dead/488752/14 "2009-03-08T21:48:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The second sentence contradicts the first sentence. There is no contradiction, 1 - Evil happens 2 - God is above that and is able to turn that evil for Good, so it is God we must turn to, as He is the only one who can do this, ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-faith-is-wondrous-to-behold-pastor-shot-dead/488752/15 "2009-03-08T21:49:35Z")
Interesting also the the church doesn’t speculate on the motive because afterall, it’s god’s will. But they still ask for prayers for the survivors. Surely god meant them to be seriously injured – are they asking for prayers to thwart god’s will? ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-faith-is-wondrous-to-behold-pastor-shot-dead/488752/16 "2009-03-08T21:56:59Z")
They’re asking for prayers to comfort themselves, like a little kid running to mommy after a loud noise. This particular mommy seems to believe in (very) tough love, and the predominant child-rearing method seems to be “I’m not going to tell you what that was or why it happened. You’ll find out when you’re older/deader/never. But I love you nonetheless. (And you better love me too.)” ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-faith-is-wondrous-to-behold-pastor-shot-dead/488752/17 "2009-03-08T22:00:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > (and God is actually the creator and sustainer of all evil. All evil is God’s will) And in regards to that, it may be that what we consider “evil” is really just growing pains on a long spiritual path. Sometimes you trip a few times before you learn how to walk. Or sometimes you get tossed into the religious equivalent of an Iron Maiden “just to make you a better person in the end”. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-faith-is-wondrous-to-behold-pastor-shot-dead/488752/18 "2009-03-08T22:01:09Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > There is no contradiction, 1 - Evil happens 2 - God is above that and is able to turn that evil for Good, so it is God we must turn to, as He is the only one who can do this, Or…maybe God doesn’t exist? And man’s mind is able to twist any event to fit a preconceived fantasy? I’m “bothered” by the story only in that the glaringly obvious is not the one considered by Nate Adams, to wit, that God, a god, or a gaggle of gods, might not exist, care, want or be able to control events as man desires. And if so, I want no part of him. He is not to be admired, but chastised. I’m also reminded of the numerous stories in the bible of groups that “went a-whoring” after other gods, or went “astray” or took the wrong path or whatever, and God (the biblical patriarch god) punished “his” people as a result. None of which seemed to make those “chosen” people fall in line except temporarily until the next time. Maybe the pastor angered God and was punished? (I’m not seriously suggesting this, but it has strong biblical precedence.) ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-faith-is-wondrous-to-behold-pastor-shot-dead/488752/19 "2009-03-08T22:12:37Z")
Yeah, maybe. Maybe not. No one knows. That’s sort of the whole point of faith. Shit happens – you can either accept it as part of God’s benevolence or deny that God exists/is benevolent. If the truth was that easy to figure out, there’d only be one religion by now. ---
**Author:** ![kittenblue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ba8739/32.png) [@kittenblue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kittenblue)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-faith-is-wondrous-to-behold-pastor-shot-dead/488752/20 "2009-03-08T22:44:54Z")
The other element you have to consider in all this is that, tragic though the pastor’s death is to his church and his family, it is not a horrible thing for the pastor…he is with the Father in heaven and is at peace, and beyond all the earthly concerns. I think perhaps that is what Mr. Adams is trying to say…that by placing your trust in God, you will be rewarded in the afterlife, no matter how tragically you may die. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-faith-is-wondrous-to-behold-pastor-shot-dead/488752.md?page=2)