# True origins of RPG concepts **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 6, 2007, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-origins-of-rpg-concepts/394861 "2007-03-06T21:49:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-origins-of-rpg-concepts/394861/21 "2007-03-07T09:01:35Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] The Phylactery of Faithfulness is based on Jewish tradition, as are golems (in the loosest possible sense, natch). [/QUOTE] Flesh Golems are pretty much Frankenstein’s Monster. Gargantua are pretty much rip-offs of King Kong and Godzilla. [QUOTE=Left HAnd of Dorkness] Do Locathah predate The Shadow Over Innsmouth? [/QUOTE] I’d say sahaugin are more like Deep Ones. But both are clearly Lovecraft-inspired. Also the Aboleth and Gibbering Mouther. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-origins-of-rpg-concepts/394861/22 "2007-03-07T09:30:50Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] The Phylactery of Faithfulness is based on Jewish tradition, as are golems (in the loosest possible sense, natch). [/QUOTE] Not that loosely - Clay Golems are actually pretty close to the original legend of the Golem of Prague. Other Golems, obviously, don’t hew as closely to myth, although I seem to remember giant walking statues in Greek legend (or maybe I’m just remembering a Harryhousen film). ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-origins-of-rpg-concepts/394861/23 "2007-03-07T10:27:36Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Is Darth Maul’s double-bladed lightsaber the inspiration for the double-bladed sword of 3.0? That may be the immediate inspiration, but there are earlier examples. In the cartoon [Galtar and the Golden Lance](http://www.retrojunk.com/details_tvshows/1419-galtar-and-the-golder-lance/), Galtar had a lance/sword thingy that was basically a fantasy version of Darth Maul’s weapon, except that he could also separate it and wield half in each hand. The game Bushido Blade had an enemy that used a double-bladed naginata (a regular naginata is a staff with a short, curved blade on one end only). Bushido Blade came out a couple of years before Episode I. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Flesh Golems are pretty much Frankenstein’s Monster. The Jewish legend predates Frankenstein by at least a couple hundred years. Also, there’s the story of Pygmalion who created an ivory statue of a hottie that was so realistic he fell in love with her. Aphrodite heard his prayers and granted her life. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-origins-of-rpg-concepts/394861/24 "2007-03-07T10:39:50Z")
I have a Tarrasque Pet Peeve. La Tarasca of Astur legend is a conceited, selfish girl who was charmed into the shape of a dragon for treating an old woman with scorn; if she ever learns to care about others, she’ll turn back. She’s not particularly dangerous, as dragons go. Apparently the “movie cheerleader type” already got on people’s nerves several centuries ago, but this should definitely not be the “a tarasque is a big dragon” that you get from RPGs! A tarasque is a bubbleheaded dragon 😃 There is a game, Akelarre, which draws directly from the Spanish middle ages, trying to meld real living conditions from the time with our own legends. It was written by Catalans who have serious problems grasping the concept of “Nájera-later-Navarra was already different, bubba,” but if you’re not from Navarra-Euskadi-La Rioja or skip those parts, it’s quite well done. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-origins-of-rpg-concepts/394861/25 "2007-03-07T14:21:35Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] Not that loosely - Clay Golems are actually pretty close to the original legend of the Golem of Prague. Other Golems, obviously, don’t hew as closely to myth, although I seem to remember giant walking statues in Greek legend (or maybe I’m just remembering a Harryhousen film). [/QUOTE] You’re probably remembering [Talos](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talos), a giant _bronze_ automaton. Although I suspect you’re closer to the mark on the D&D origins with the Harryhousen films. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-origins-of-rpg-concepts/394861/26 "2007-03-07T14:55:32Z")
[QUOTE=Nava] I have a Tarrasque Pet Peeve. La Tarasca of Astur legend is a conceited, selfish girl who was charmed into the shape of a dragon for treating an old woman with scorn; if she ever learns to care about others, she’ll turn back. She’s not particularly dangerous, as dragons go. Apparently the “movie cheerleader type” already got on people’s nerves several centuries ago, but this should definitely not be the “a tarasque is a big dragon” that you get from RPGs! A tarasque is a bubbleheaded dragon 😃 There is a game, Akelarre, which draws directly from the Spanish middle ages, trying to meld real living conditions from the time with our own legends. It was written by Catalans who have serious problems grasping the concept of “Nájera-later-Navarra was already different, bubba,” but if you’re not from Navarra-Euskadi-La Rioja or skip those parts, it’s quite well done. [/QUOTE] There’s also a “Gaulish” Tarasque. [www.musee-lapidaire.org/fr/tarasque-de-noves-0.html](http://www.musee-lapidaire.org/fr/tarasque-de-noves-0.html) Houston’s Menil Museum has a fine small Tarasque–but it hasn’t been displayed in years. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-origins-of-rpg-concepts/394861/27 "2007-03-07T17:03:34Z")
[QUOTE=sturmhauke] The Jewish legend predates Frankenstein by at least a couple hundred years. [/QUOTE] It also makes no mention of animating dead flesh. (Which doesn’t seem to me to be something a Rabbi would do, personally.) The Clay Golem is taken directly from Jewish legend. Other kinds of Golem take only their name from it, taking direct inspiration for the creature’s nature from other works (Flesh Golems from Frankenstein, Doll Golems from a whole slew of horror movies, Cream Puff Golems from my fevered imagination… (Well, actually, I didn’t even invent that one…I keep threatening my players with it after seeing a cream puff monster in a movie.)) ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-origins-of-rpg-concepts/394861/28 "2007-03-07T17:26:31Z")
Don’t forget Garlic Bread Golems. Really, the variety of Golems is only limited by the imagination. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-origins-of-rpg-concepts/394861/29 "2007-03-07T20:00:39Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] Don’t forget Garlic Bread Golems. Really, the variety of Golems is only limited by the imagination. [/QUOTE] Tell it. I’ve been toying with the idea of various non-standard golems, such as: [ul] [li]Hair Golem[/li][li]Gem Golem[/li][li]Smoke Golem[/li][li]Sand Golem[/li][li]Rust Golem[/li][li]Mold Golem[/li][li]Bone Golem[/li][/ul] Garlic Bread…gonna have to add that one to the list. Maybe Coconut and Custard, as well. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-origins-of-rpg-concepts/394861/30 "2007-03-07T20:21:17Z")
[QUOTE=Max Torque] Tell it. I’ve been toying with the idea of various non-standard golems, such as: [ul] [li]Hair Golem[/li][li]Gem Golem[/li][li]Smoke Golem[/li][li]Sand Golem[/li][li]Rust Golem[/li][li]Mold Golem[/li][li]Bone Golem[/li][/ul] Garlic Bread…gonna have to add that one to the list. Maybe Coconut and Custard, as well. [/QUOTE] The Ravenloft setting of AD&D had bone golems, blood golems, pyre golems, mist golems, stained glass golems, and gargoyle golems. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-origins-of-rpg-concepts/394861/31 "2007-03-07T20:22:19Z")
The Ravenloft Monstrous Compendium for 2nd ed. had a stained glass golem, evidently taken from one of the hallucination scenes in the movie, _Young Sherlock Holmes_. Come to think of it, I believe Watson was menaced by a cream puff golem in the same movie. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-origins-of-rpg-concepts/394861/32 "2007-03-07T20:23:22Z")
Jinx! **Jayjay** owes me a coke! ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-origins-of-rpg-concepts/394861/33 "2007-03-07T20:30:47Z")
[QUOTE=Tengu] It also makes no mention of animating dead flesh. (Which doesn’t seem to me to be something a Rabbi would do, personally.) The Clay Golem is taken directly from Jewish legend. Other kinds of Golem take only their name from it, taking direct inspiration for the creature’s nature from other works (Flesh Golems from Frankenstein, Doll Golems from a whole slew of horror movies, Cream Puff Golems from my fevered imagination… (Well, actually, I didn’t even invent that one…I keep threatening my players with it after seeing a cream puff monster in a movie.)) [/QUOTE] I guess the question is, what inspired Mary Shelly? Was it the legend of the Golem? Pygmalion? Talos? Or was she doing too much opium? ---
**Author:** ![Risha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@Risha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Risha)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-origins-of-rpg-concepts/394861/34 "2007-03-07T22:26:16Z")
[QUOTE=Tengu] There’s a subrace of Halflings in the Forgotten Realms called Ghostwise Halflings, which I would be very surprised if they weren’t based on the Wolfriders from Elfquest - they’re small, wild, tribal and telepathic. (Although they ride eagles, not wolves.) Although that’s only suspected, not known. [/QUOTE] I’ve never played the game so I can’t confirm the resemblance, but there is a group of elves in Elfquest that ride eagles. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-origins-of-rpg-concepts/394861/35 "2007-03-07T22:58:53Z")
[QUOTE=Risha] I’ve never played the game so I can’t confirm the resemblance, but there is a group of elves in Elfquest that ride eagles. [/QUOTE] The Ghostwise Halflings, aside from the choice of mounts, are very much like the Wolfriders, and not particularly like the Gliders. So, I think (assuming I’m right about them being based on the Wolfriders) is really just a way of separating them from the Wolfriders a bit, rather than a reference to the Chosen Eight. ---
**Author:** ![CapnPitt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/edb3f5/32.png) [@CapnPitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CapnPitt)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-origins-of-rpg-concepts/394861/36 "2007-03-07T23:02:33Z")
Which, if I might do a minor hijack, brings me to a question I’ve always had: pronounced gollum or go-lem or something else entirely like Rolf? Great thread btw. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-origins-of-rpg-concepts/394861/37 "2007-03-07T23:11:56Z")
[QUOTE=CapnPitt] Which, if I might do a minor hijack, brings me to a question I’ve always had: pronounced gollum or go-lem or something else entirely like Rolf? Great thread btw. [/QUOTE] Go-lem - from the Hebrew word for “dummy”, “amorphous mass” and oddly enough, " chrysalis." And thanks! ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-origins-of-rpg-concepts/394861/38 "2007-03-07T23:46:17Z")
This is the part where I run through the thread screming “Joseph Campbell!” along with the occasional “Marshall McLuhan!” ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-origins-of-rpg-concepts/394861/39 "2007-03-08T01:50:58Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] Does a black pudding have a pedigree older than _The Blob_? Do Locathah predate _The Shadow Over Innsmouth_? Daniel [/QUOTE] Close. But the ripped off Deep Ones are Kuo Toa. OTTOMH They once ruled the surface and kept humans as slaves. They were driven off in a great war. Some lived in ocean depths but got killed by unknown monsters. The surviving branch took to the Underdark. There they worship an inhuman deity who demands human sacrifice and has an impossible to pronounce name (Blibdoolpoop). They are prone to insanity and degeneration. My Creature Catalog has no shaugin but does have the very similar SharkKin. At a guess, I’d say sahuagin are based on Polynesian legends of weresharks and sharkmen. Mindflayers- While not to my knowledge a direct swipe, these things are clearly inspired by the Cthulhu mythos. They have a Cthuloid appearance. They serve a giant elderbrain in a special pool. They eat human brains. Contact with their minds drives humans mad. Note that Cthulhu and a Melnibonian Mythos appeared in early editions of Legends And Lore Back To The OP Mithril- swiped from Tolkien of course. Catoblepas- Mentioned in the New Testament Drow- Dark Alfar are mentioned in Norse mythology Clay Golem- Definitely based on Jewish legend. Control is inevitably lost. The creature eventually breaks free and goes on a rampage. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-origins-of-rpg-concepts/394861/40 "2007-03-08T01:57:30Z")
[QUOTE=garygnu] This is the part where I run through the thread screming “Joseph Campbell!” along with the occasional “Marshall McLuhan!” [/QUOTE] I got to disagree about Campbell. He was interested in finding the common meaning, the same root cause behind many masks. The people putting together the D&D books just wanted the masks. Forget the meaning of the story, here’s a giant sea turtle to put in the monster manual. Here’s another variety of vampire to use. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-origins-of-rpg-concepts/394861.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/true-origins-of-rpg-concepts/394861.md?page=3)