# Trump accuses Obama of wiretapping him **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 4, 2017, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384 "2017-03-04T15:07:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/501 "2017-03-22T21:44:05Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Nunes: > > "Today I briefed the President on the concerns that I had about incidental collection and how it relates to the President-elect Trump and his transition team and the concerns that I have. As I said earlier, there will be more information, hopefully by Friday. The NSA is cooperating very, very well. **And lastly I’ll say that the reports that I was able to see did not have anything to do with Russia or the Russia investigation or any tie to the Trump team."** So, he told Trump, “Hey, I am concerned that they got you on tape talking to criminals and spies that they had under surveillance. They know everything that you talked about with these criminals and spies. You should be very concerned.” ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/502 "2017-03-22T21:44:10Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Apparently he was correct that he and his people were under surveillance by the Obama administration (and some of their conversations and their contents were disseminated under their names inside the Obama administration, apparently). Which, while questionably legal, definitely smells bad (or sick?)." No one is above the law in this country so it is quite reasonable that politicians would be investigated for all the same types of possible crimes as any other American ranging from tax evasion to domestic abuse to bribery to natural security violations, etc. Nothing at all “smells bad” when law enforcement professionals are making the decisions to investigate people for possible criminal investigations. What “smells bad” is when politicians are making these decisions. So the question is not whether or not Trump and his associates were investigated for possible national security violations but to what extent Democratic politicians were involved. You use the term “Obama administration”. But the big distinction is to be made between the relatively small number of politicians and the hundreds of thousands of civil servants. Where is the evidence that politicians were involved and not just the national security civil servants? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/503 "2017-03-22T21:47:36Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > No one is above the law in this country so it is quite reasonable that politicians would be investigated for all the same types of possible crimes as any other American ranging from tax evasion to domestic abuse to bribery to natural security violations, etc. > > Nothing at all “smells bad” when law enforcement professionals are making the decisions to investigate people for possible criminal investigations. What “smells bad” is when politicians are making these decisions. > > So the question is not whether or not Trump and his associates were investigated for possible national security violations but to what extent Democratic politicians were involved. You use the term “Obama administration”. But the big distinction is to be made between the relatively small number of politicians and the hundreds of thousands of civil servants. Where is the evidence that politicians were involved and not just the national security civil servants? We don’t even need to go this far – no one, including Trump and Nunes (and certainly not **Okrahoma** ) has presented any evidence that there was any actual wiretapping of Trump, his campaign, or his property. If evidence were actually to be presented, then it might be worth looking into why it was done, but right now, there’s no more evidence for this than for Trump’s myriad of other lies about Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/504 "2017-03-22T21:49:32Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > No one is above the law in this country so it is quite reasonable that politicians would be investigated for all the same types of possible crimes as any other American ranging from tax evasion to domestic abuse to bribery to natural security violations, etc. What “smells bad” is not the incidental collection of surveillance info - that can definitely happen. What smells bad is the dissemination of the names of the “incidental” parties and contents of conversations - which is definitely against the rules. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/505 "2017-03-22T21:50:36Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > And yet they were revealed. That’s a separate issue. Trump could demand all the records, including court orders, and put this to rest. Why doesn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/506 "2017-03-22T21:52:11Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > What “smells bad” is not the incidental collection of surveillance info - that can definitely happen. What smells bad is the dissemination of the names of the “incidental” parties and contents of conversations - which is definitely against the rules. What does this have to do with what Trump actually said, and what does it have to do with Obama? ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/507 "2017-03-22T21:57:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What does this have to do with what Trump actually said, and what does it have to do with Obama? This happened after Obama issued an executive order in the last few days of his administration that allowed such dissemination to happen - right in time: > **[Obama Opens NSA's Vast Trove of Warrantless Data to Entire Intelligence...](https://theintercept.com/2017/01/13/obama-opens-nsas-vast-trove-of-warrantless-data-to-entire-intelligence-community-just-in-time-for-trump/)** > > One privacy activist responded: "This decision will be added to the timelines of the most significant expansions of domestic surveillance in the modern era.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/508 "2017-03-22T21:59:53Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > This happened after Obama issued an executive order in the last few days of his administration that allowed such dissemination to happen - right in time: > > [Obama Opens NSA Warrantless Data to Intelligence Community](https://theintercept.com/2017/01/13/obama-opens-nsas-vast-trove-of-warrantless-data-to-entire-intelligence-community-just-in-time-for-trump/) What does this have to do with Trump’s tweet about wiretapping, and what does this order have to do with the dissemination you’re criticizing? So far, you haven’t presented any actual evidence of anything. So far, there is no more evidence for this claim than Trump’s years of birther lies. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/509 "2017-03-22T22:20:20Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > This happened after Obama issued an executive order in the last few days of his administration that allowed such dissemination to happen - right in time: > > [Obama Opens NSA Warrantless Data to Intelligence Community](https://theintercept.com/2017/01/13/obama-opens-nsas-vast-trove-of-warrantless-data-to-entire-intelligence-community-just-in-time-for-trump/) Trump has canceled other Obama EOs with his own. He couldn’t do one more? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/510 "2017-03-22T22:32:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What does this have to do with Trump’s tweet about wiretapping, and what does this order have to do with the dissemination you’re criticizing? So far, you haven’t presented any actual evidence of anything. So far, there is no more evidence for this claim than Trump’s years of birther lies. Not to mention the fact that encouraging the various intelligence-gathering agencies to share with each other is a good thing. 11 September 2001 might have ended differently if the reports of radical Muslims training to use boxcutters in the hijacking of planes weren’t sat on until after the fact. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/511 "2017-03-22T22:59:56Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Trump has canceled other Obama EOs with his own. He couldn’t do one more? A bit late after the info was already disseminated no? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/512 "2017-03-22T23:02:16Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > A bit late after the info was already disseminated no? What is the evidence that this dissemination had anything to do with that order? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/513 "2017-03-22T23:06:07Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > What “smells bad” is not the incidental collection of surveillance info - that can definitely happen. What smells bad is the dissemination of the names of the “incidental” parties and contents of conversations - which is definitely against the rules. So, are you now disavowing your previous statements that Trump or his campaign were under surveillance by the Obama administration? Is your claim now that he and his campaign wasn’t under surveillance, but were incidentally picked up as part of some other surveillance operation having nothing to do with Trump or his campaign, and the wrongdoing, if any, has to do with whether the names that were incidentally picked up were distributed? If you’re backing away from your charge that Trump or his campaign were themselves under surveillance, I’d appreciate you saying that explicitly. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/514 "2017-03-22T23:12:51Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > This happened after Obama issued an executive order in the last few days of his administration that allowed such dissemination to happen - right in time: > > [Obama Opens NSA Warrantless Data to Intelligence Community](https://theintercept.com/2017/01/13/obama-opens-nsas-vast-trove-of-warrantless-data-to-entire-intelligence-community-just-in-time-for-trump/) I’m not being snarky about this question, but it is very important to a factual response to what you have raised. Do you know the difference between 12333 collection and FISA collection? ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/515 "2017-03-22T23:18:08Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > So, are you now disavowing your previous statements that Trump or his campaign were under surveillance by the Obama administration? Yes, they were. “Incidentally”. Which was definitely exacerbated by later dissemination of the “incidentally” obtained information. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/516 "2017-03-22T23:24:37Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m not being snarky about this question, but it is very important to a factual response to what you have raised. Do you know the difference between 12333 collection and FISA collection? Yes. One purportedly is domestic collection of intelligence. The other is foreign. The distinction is murkier is that: see [Executive Order 12333 on American Soil, and Other Tales from the FISA Frontier | Web Policy](http://webpolicy.org/2014/12/03/eo-12333-on-american-soil/) And how is that relevant? Neither I nor you have any idea whether the “incidental” collection of information was done under 12333 or FISA. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/517 "2017-03-22T23:27:16Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Yes, they were. “Incidentally”. Which was definitely exacerbated by later dissemination of the “incidentally” obtained information. By what evidence do you make this claim? ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/518 "2017-03-22T23:32:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > By what evidence do you make this claim? Flynn’s info and contents of his conversations got all the way to NYT. If that’s not “widely disseminated” I don’t know what is. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/519 "2017-03-22T23:36:15Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > … "Trump was wrong to imply illegality if he wasn’t sure of it. > > Apparently he was correct that he and his people were under surveillance by the Obama administration … Accepting Nunes statements at face value … no, not correct. Completely incorrect. Let us imagine that the FBI has a certain individual or group of individuals under surveillance … who knows what for, possible child porn distribution, who knows. Trump and/or his people stop into the offices or call the suspected child porn distributor and are recorded in a conversation … of some sort … maybe purchasing, maybe selling, maybe innocently asking if they have a cup of sugar to borrow. They are now recorded. But they were not under surveillance themselves … whether they were recording doing something criminal or not they were caught in the recording incidentally, not surveilled. And no that is not ordering the surveillance of Trump or his team. Not ordering the wiretapping of Trump Tower. Not using a microwave as a camera. Now mind you there may be some surveillance of Trump’s team that was done as part of an investigation into Russian election meddling and possible collusion. That would not require Obama ordering it and of course if there was cause for such an investigation to be done it should have been done. Given the web of activities that Trump and his team members have been involved in it is likely in fact that they will have had contact with individuals who may, for reasons possibly having nothing to do with the Trump team members (or possibly to do with) be under surveillance and be caught incidentally. You cavort with those who are, with cause, suspected of crimes and under surveillance, and you will possibly be recorded as well. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/520 "2017-03-22T23:42:42Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Now mind you there may be some surveillance of Trump’s team that was done as part of an investigation into Russian election meddling and possible collusion. 1. Nunes explicitly said it had nothing to do with Russia. 2. I would love for Democrats to try to split hairs publicly (and repeatedly, I am sure) between “there may be some surveillance of Trump’s team” and “Trump’s team was under surveillance”. That would be hilarious. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384.md?page=27)