# Trump accuses Obama of wiretapping him **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 4, 2017, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384 "2017-03-04T15:07:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/621 "2017-03-24T14:50:39Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > That’s right. No one came into Trump Tower in the middle of the night and fiddled with any wires. How is that relevant to what I said? Right. That’s clearly what Nunes meant. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/622 "2017-03-24T14:56:50Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > That’s right. No one came into Trump Tower in the middle of the night and fiddled with any wires. How is that relevant to what I said? Wait – so you are now agreeing with Nunes that Trump’s tweet is wrong? Because two pages ago, you were clinging to a vague statement of Nunes as proof that Trump’s tweet was correct. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/623 "2017-03-24T14:58:11Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Right. That’s clearly what Nunes meant. Nunes, on Sunday: “Was there a physical wiretap of Trump Tower? No, there never was.” On Wed (or was it Tue?) press conference: "There was not a physical wiretap of Trump Tower.” Yes, that is clearly what Nunes meant. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/624 "2017-03-24T15:00:07Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Wait – so you are now agreeing with Nunes that Trump’s tweet is wrong? Because two pages ago, you were clinging to a vague statement of Nunes as proof that Trump’s tweet was correct. Only if “wiretap” can only mean a physical fiddling with wires. But that’s not what “wiretap” means. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/625 "2017-03-24T15:01:56Z")
Anyway - back to my hypothetical - can anyone answer it? I answered yours… ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/626 "2017-03-24T15:02:26Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Only if “wiretap” can only mean a physical fiddling with wires. But that’s not what “wiretap” means. So would you say that the odds are very high that at this moment, Trump is wiretapping Bill and Hillary Clinton? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/627 "2017-03-24T15:05:43Z")
Reminds me of this: > [@H.Dumpty](#): > > When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/628 "2017-03-24T15:22:33Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > In your example the answer is A+B. > > Now this hypothetical: a politician is “caught” on the phone making conversation with someone that FBI or NSA is monitoring, with no criminal content whatsoever, and discusses something he is going to do in the campaign. The FBI/NSA widely disseminates the conversation in its reports, including the part with the campaign info, and including the politician’s name, possibly to the White House. > > Whom do you think it is damning? First, my question was addressed at **Pantastic** , not you. I’ve given up asking you to admit that Trump or his campaign was not under surveillance, another point brought up in my hypothetical. So, I’m not sure why I’m responding to you since you refuse to answer my questions about being under surveillance. With that said: I don’t know – why was the FBI or NSA monitoring that person? Was it appropriate for the politician to discuss the campaign with that person? What are the rules for the FBI/NSA as far as disseminating the names of callers to persons of interest? I ask because sharing has been encouraged between the agencies. Say that person is a known agent of North Korea and the politician is caught talking to that person. It’s known that North Korea is hoping to disrupt an election, so giving details of what a campaign is going to could be a problem, even if the politician doesn’t know the guy is an NK agent. However, it’s important to figure out whether that politician is sharing campaign info with other foreign agents, so his name is disseminated so that other groups can be aware to watch out for that politician’s name coming up. So, your hypothetical is incomplete and I need more details to say whether something was appropriate or not. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/629 "2017-03-24T15:28:39Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I don’t know – why was the FBI or NSA monitoring that person? Irrelevant to the illegality of “unmasking” the US person. > [@](#): > > Was it appropriate for the politician to discuss the campaign with that person? Irrelevant to the illegality of “unmasking” the US person. > [@](#): > > What are the rules for the FBI/NSA as far as disseminating the names of callers to persons of interest? > **[Trump policies, telecom industry changes alarm rural providers - Washington...](https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/2618185/trump-policies-telecom-industry-changes-alarm-rural-providers/)** > > A litany of telecommunications issues before the federal government have the smallest U.S. carriers worried that Washington will hurt, or at least fail to protect, their businesses at a time when the divide between urban and rural providers is... "During an interview on Fox News, Woodward said that if that information about the unmasking is true, “it is a gross violation.” … He noted that there are about 20 people in the intelligence community who, for intelligence reasons, can order this “minimization” be removed. “But the idea that there was intelligence value here is really thin,” Woodward said. “It’s, again, down the middle, it is not what Trump said, but **this could be criminal on the part of people who decided, oh, let’s name these people**.” He drove the point home, adding that “under the rules, that name is supposed to be blanked out, and so you’ve got a real serious problem potentially of people in the Obama administration passing around this highly classified gossip.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/630 "2017-03-24T15:31:07Z")
If somebody does something, do you think that someone else has the right to do something too? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/631 "2017-03-24T15:44:22Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Irrelevant to the illegality of “unmasking” the US person. > Irrelevant to the illegality of “unmasking” the US person. Here’s a report from a right-wing news source that says that Nunes told Schiff that the main problem was that Nunes could “infer the identity of the Trump team members despite their being masked.” I’m starting to think that Trump looks like a rock-solid, trustworthy truth-teller compared to Nunes. Nunes can’t even keep his stories straight on why he is outraged! ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/632 "2017-03-24T15:46:01Z")
Every story I’m reading, including Woodward’s, says identities “may” have been disclosed. Even the report Nunes ran to the WH with, doesn’t definitively say identities were disclosed, nor who those people were. So what do we really know? More importantly, what does Nunes actually know? Is Nunes’ definition of “unmasked” similar to his definition of “wiretapped”? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/633 "2017-03-24T15:50:24Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Every story I’m reading, including Woodward’s, says identities “may” have been disclosed. Even the report Nunes ran to the WH with, doesn’t definitively say identities were disclosed, nor who those people were. > > So what do we really know? More importantly, what does Nunes actually know? > > Is Nunes’ definition of “unmasked” similar to his definition of “wiretapped”? If “wiretapped” means tapping an actual wire, then maybe “unmasked” means taking an actual mask off? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/634 "2017-03-24T15:55:16Z")
When we’re dealing with these levels of aversion to facts, it could be a tape recording of Michael Flynn and the Russian Ambassador doing a Netflix and chill to Jim Carrey’s “The Mask.” ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/635 "2017-03-24T16:08:50Z")
Before we grab our torches and pitchforks to storm the FBI and NSA… what is actually known about the report that Nunes claims to have, and what does it say about who was unmasked? Everything he’s said so far about what’s in the report sounds very meta. To say nothing of the fact that Nunes is a treacherous rat-fink snitch with not an ounce of integrity. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/636 "2017-03-24T16:14:56Z")
I can’t remember if it was in this thread or somewhere else that I read: The house is on fire, Trump is running around with a lighter, and the Republicans are demanding to know who called the fire department. It sure does sound like what’s going on in this thread recently. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/637 "2017-03-24T16:52:21Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Irrelevant to the illegality of “unmasking” the US person. > Irrelevant to the illegality of “unmasking” the US person. > > [http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/bob-woodward-obama-officials-possibly-facing-criminal-charges-for-unmasking-scheme/article/2618185](http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/bob-woodward-obama-officials-possibly-facing-criminal-charges-for-unmasking-scheme/article/2618185) > > "During an interview on Fox News, Woodward said that if that information about the unmasking is true, “it is a gross violation.” > … > He noted that there are about 20 people in the intelligence community who, for intelligence reasons, can order this “minimization” be removed. > > “But the idea that there was intelligence value here is really thin,” Woodward said. “It’s, again, down the middle, it is not what Trump said, but **this could be criminal on the part of people who decided, oh, let’s name these people**.” > > He drove the point home, adding that “under the rules, that name is supposed to be blanked out, and so you’ve got a real serious problem potentially of people in the Obama administration passing around this highly classified gossip.” Sorry, I’m no longer engaging with you until you admit that your statement that Trump or his campaign were under surveillance was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/638 "2017-03-24T17:50:29Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Sorry, I’m no longer engaging with you until you admit that your statement that Trump or his campaign were under surveillance was wrong. It wasn’t wrong. Since Trump or his aides’ private conversations were disseminated widely under their names, yes, he was under surveillance. Weaselly semantics notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/639 "2017-03-24T17:52:57Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > It wasn’t wrong. Since Trump or his aides’ private conversations were disseminated widely under their names, yes, he was under surveillance. Weaselly semantics notwithstanding. No. Various foreign agents were under surveillance. If Trump & his minions called up to chat, too bad. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/640 "2017-03-24T17:55:33Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > No. Various foreign agents were under surveillance. If Trump & his minions called up to chat, too bad. That’s not what the rules say, according to Woodward as I quoted: "During an interview on Fox News, Woodward said that if that information about the unmasking is true, “it is a gross violation.” … He noted that there are about 20 people in the intelligence community who, for intelligence reasons, can order this “minimization” be removed. “But the idea that there was intelligence value here is really thin,” Woodward said. “It’s, again, down the middle, it is not what Trump said, but this could be criminal on the part of people who decided, oh, let’s name these people.” He drove the point home, adding that “under the rules, that name is supposed to be blanked out, and so you’ve got a real serious problem potentially of people in the Obama administration passing around this highly classified gossip.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384.md?page=33)