# Trump accuses Obama of wiretapping him **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 4, 2017, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384 "2017-03-04T15:07:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/841 "2017-04-04T13:04:41Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > How do those people, who have been out of government for a decade to decades, know what Susan Rice ordered? It seems like you’re suggesting they are credible because they are not anonymous sources. Is Mark Levine credible because he is not an anonymous source? …and how do they know the contents of the conversations? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/842 "2017-04-04T14:01:20Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > And everyone who, you know, actually had a case. Actual conspiracies do exist. Just ask Carl Bernstein. Right. But it’s not a coincidence if you can come up with all sorts of circumstantial “evidence” for things that are completely bogus. The world is a complicated place, and there are all sorts of facts out there. Out of those trillions of facts, there will always be some that can be spun as coincidental, if you collect all the ones that seem to point in a certain direction and ignore the context. That’s how you get coincidences that prove various people were involved in the Kennedy assassination, or that OJ was framed etc. etc. It’s the parallel to what’s known in the statistical/research world as “data mining”. Trump has interacted with a zillion people, both in his business and his campaign. Each of those people has also interacted with many many people, and so on. It’s not at all coincidental that you will find from among these people some contacts or connections with Russians, and if you line up all those contacts and ignore all others, then it looks like something real. But if the issue was contacts with Germans you would probably find many contacts with Germans. If the issue was Hillary Clinton’s contacts with Russians, you could find that too. Because there’s such a focus on this notion that Trump is in cahoots with Putin, every Trump-Russia connection is being seized upon, but that’s just looking at things in a vacuum. It’s not like this is something that just arose now. The FBI possibly other intelligence organizations, plus every major news organization have been on top of this for months and months. And by all indications, nobody has found anything other than … more contacts with Russians. It’s not out of the realm of possibility that a genuine smoking gun will yet turn up. But the odds are not good. At this point, the entire evidence amounts to nothing substantive at all. Might still be worth looking at further, if the intelligence people think there’s still things they’re uncertain of. But - and this was my point here - to say tantalizingly “coincidences keep piling up …” is just silly and the result of a conspiracy theory mentality. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/843 "2017-04-04T14:04:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes, we can take these sources as facts, and Rice as a liar, since obviously any time someone says something that conflicts with a liberal, it must be the liberal who is lying. Leaving aside the details here, I assume you agree that Rice flatly denied knowing anything about unmasking the identities of Trump associates. So if it should turn out that there is documented evidence that Rice herself led the effort in doing just that, would you at that point agree that she lied? Or are you disagreeing about something else? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/844 "2017-04-04T14:14:10Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > “The overheard conversations involved no illegal activity by anybody of the Trump associates, or anyone they were speaking with,” diGenova said. “In short, the only apparent illegal activity was the unmasking of the people in the calls.” This is objectively false. Rice has the legal authority to unmask the names of people who talk to other people who are under surveillance. > [@](#): > > Michael Doran, former NSC senior director, told TheDCNF Monday that “somebody blew a hole in the wall between national security secrets and partisan politics.” This “was a stream of information that was supposed to be hermetically sealed from politics and the Obama administration found a way to blow a hole in that wall.” If you can show that Rice asked for the names to be unmasked in order to give the Obama campaign inside information about the Trump campaign, then yes that would be a hole in the wall. However, this is far from being shown, and there are very valid reasons that Rice would legitimately need to know that information for her job as national security advisor. We have a mountain of circumstantial evidence that the Trump campaign was colluding with the Russians to affect the outcome of our election. If the national security advisor was doing her job properly, she’d need to know all about it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/845 "2017-04-04T14:21:16Z")
And let’s not forget that diGenova said that both houses of Congress should censure James Comey for failing to indict Hillary Clinton. [Link.](http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-morris/digenova-was-fbi-cover) He also claimed that the FBI and intelligence community would “revolt” if Clinton was not indicted. [Link.](https://www.mediamatters.org/research/2016/01/06/benghazi-fabricator-demands-hillary-clinton-ind/207808) He has also been confident that a grand jury was convened about Clinton’s emails. [Link.](http://www.wnd.com/2016/03/legendary-u-s-attorney-confident-doj-convened-hillary-grand-jury/) Not to mention his discredited Benghazi theories and so on… but yeah, I’m sure he’s trustworthy because he goes on the record. WITH HIS NAME!!!1! ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/846 "2017-04-04T14:33:02Z")
Will the Trump Admin take action protect The United States from enemies domestic by prosecuting people for these ostensibly illegal activities, e.g. unmasking? Or will the Trump Admin just let these people do their damage to America with impunity? Or is there not really a “there” there, so there’s nothing to actually be prosecuted? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/847 "2017-04-04T14:33:26Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Leaving aside the details here, I assume you agree that Rice flatly denied knowing anything about unmasking the identities of Trump associates. So if it should turn out that there is documented evidence that Rice herself led the effort in doing just that, would you at that point agree that she lied? Or are you disagreeing about something else? Rice was well within her right as the National Security Adviser to ask for unmasking of names in the surveillance reports. She would have to make an official request for that to be done and there is a paper trail showing as much. As to motive (national security vs. political), I guess we’ll have to wait and see if/when she is questioned by the Senate intelligence investigation committee. As to why she lied to NPR… I don’t know and that’s a good question. Is it possible, that she is still required to keep mum about top secret information she knows as a former NSA? But none of this makes Trump’s problems vis-a-vis Russian connections look any better. It bears reminding that if these conversations never took place and subsequently lied about by Trump & Co., this issue would not exist. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/848 "2017-04-04T14:39:05Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Right. But it’s not a coincidence if you can come up with all sorts of circumstantial “evidence” for things that are completely bogus. The world is a complicated place, and there are all sorts of facts out there. Out of those trillions of facts, there will always be some that can be spun as coincidental, if you collect all the ones that seem to point in a certain direction and ignore the context. That’s how you get coincidences that prove various people were involved in the Kennedy assassination, or that OJ was framed etc. etc. It’s the parallel to what’s known in the statistical/research world as “data mining”. > > Trump has interacted with a zillion people, both in his business and his campaign. Each of those people has also interacted with many many people, and so on. It’s not at all coincidental that you will find from among these people some contacts or connections with Russians, and if you line up all those contacts and ignore all others, then it looks like something real. But if the issue was contacts with Germans you would probably find many contacts with Germans. If the issue was Hillary Clinton’s contacts with Russians, you could find that too. Because there’s such a focus on this notion that Trump is in cahoots with Putin, every Trump-Russia connection is being seized upon, but that’s just looking at things in a vacuum. > > It’s not like this is something that just arose now. The FBI possibly other intelligence organizations, plus every major news organization have been on top of this for months and months. And by all indications, nobody has found anything other than … more contacts with Russians. > > It’s not out of the realm of possibility that a genuine smoking gun will yet turn up. But the odds are not good. At this point, the entire evidence amounts to nothing substantive at all. Might still be worth looking at further, if the intelligence people think there’s still things they’re uncertain of. But - and this was my point here - to say tantalizingly “coincidences keep piling up …” is just silly and the result of a conspiracy theory mentality. There is considerably more evidence of inappropriate involvement between Trump and/or his campaign and Russia than there was for wrongdoing by either of the Clintons in the Whitewater case. There is considerably more evidence of inappropriate involvement between Trump and/or his campaign and Russia than there was for wrongdoing by Hillary or Obama with regard to Benghazi. There is considerably more evidence of inappropriate involvement between Trump and/or his campaign and Russia than there was for wrongdoing by Obama with regard to the IRS. And yet all of those had the shit investigated out of them. Even Clinton’s emails had more in-depth investigation. So while this whole “welp, there’s all kinds of stuff happening, we can’t investigate everything, and there’s probably nothing there” shtick is fun, this desperate handwaving smacks strongly of IOKIARDIism. You can’t complain that investigations haven’t turned anything up when there hasn’t been any substantive investigation yet, and you can’t assert there’s no smoking gun when they haven’t looked for one yet. There’s been a lot of talking, sure, but until the subpoenas start getting issued it’s all still just talk. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/849 "2017-04-04T14:41:39Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Leaving aside the details here, I assume you agree that Rice flatly denied knowing anything about unmasking the identities of Trump associates. So if it should turn out that there is documented evidence that Rice herself led the effort in doing just that, would you at that point agree that she lied? Or are you disagreeing about something else? I don’t recall Rice’s exact words, but if you’re accurately characterizing them, then yes. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/850 "2017-04-04T15:01:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t recall Rice’s exact words, but if you’re accurately characterizing them, then yes. From [PBS](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/susan-rice-world-wonders-worries-white-house-can-trusted/): > [@](#): > > I began by asking about the allegations leveled today by House Intelligence Committee Chairman Devin Nunes that Trump transition officials, including the president, may have been swept up in surveillance of foreigners at the end of the Obama administration. > > SUSAN RICE, Former U.S. National Security Adviser: I know nothing about this. I was surprised to see reports from Chairman Nunes on that count today. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/851 "2017-04-04T15:11:48Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Leaving aside the details here, I assume you agree that Rice flatly denied knowing anything about unmasking the identities of Trump associates. So if it should turn out that there is documented evidence that Rice herself led the effort in doing just that, would you at that point agree that she lied? Or are you disagreeing about something else? Getting back to this, yes, it appears Rice lied to PBS. I don’t like that she did that, but it’s certainly not a crime, and maybe there are good reasons that a national security advisor should have to mask what activities she took part in when talking to the press. I’d certainly prefer an “I cannot confirm nor deny” answer. The consequence of this lie should be that PBS should recognize that a national security advisor may not be able to be forthcoming and warn their viewers about it during the interview. It’s not at all comparable, however, to Clapper lying under oath about the activities of the NSA, because the investigation at hand then were looking for Constitutional violations in the NSA’s policies. So - what’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/852 "2017-04-04T15:16:50Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Will the Trump Admin take action protect The United States from enemies domestic by prosecuting people for these ostensibly illegal activities, e.g. unmasking? > > Or will the Trump Admin just let these people do their damage to America with impunity? > > Or is there not really a “there” there, so there’s nothing to actually be prosecuted? Unmasking is not illegal ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/853 "2017-04-04T15:17:48Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > [Putin Derangement Syndrome Arrives](http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/taibbi-putin-derangement-syndrome-arrives-w474771) As much as I am enjoying the scandal, I’ll admit he has a point. Personally, I feel that Trump was being more stupid than evil - he runs his mouth without thinking. He publicly praised Putin and favorably compared him to Obama. He expressed a strong desire to make deals with Putin. He hires people based on his self-professed “instincts” with properly vetting them. I think Manafort was a “guy from the building” that Trump hung around with and I wouldn’t be surprised if Trump had no idea of his Russia connections. He’s vulnerable to financial manipulation because he regards himself as a great deal maker. He could sell Putin a pencil for a million dollars and his only thought would be " I’m a great deal maker, not “Oh crap, I just accepted a bribe”. I have a personal theory that is just wild-assed speculation but it goes to a statement made by Uday or Qusay ( I don’t remember which). The statement was that the Trump Organization looked into building in Russia but decided not to because of a lack of trustworthy partners and a scary business environment ( this was probably a smart decision because Russia does horrible things to foreign investors like stealing their assets and falsely charging them with serious crimes.) But my speculation is that this decision was a burr in the Trump saddle, so to speak - a TRUMP backing away from a deal because they were SCARED?..leaving him with an intense desire to make deals with Russia and garner favor with Putin. But the fact of Russian interference is undisputed as is the fact that the Trump campaign encouraged it. Now, THAT’S enough to outrage me even if they don’t find a smoking gun. But I do strongly disagree with one point in the Taibbi article, which is that fake stories about the Clintons didn’t lose her any votes among Liberals. I’m an “east coast elite”. There was a lot of political fractiousness among my friends last year. Not Dems vs Pubs or Clinton vs Trump. I don’t know many Republicans and I didn’t know anyone that supported Trump. But there was a huge group of my liberal friends, many among the conspiracy theory nexus- that believed these stories and refused to vote for Clinton. They either stayed home, voted Johnson or wrote in Bernie. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/854 "2017-04-04T15:36:44Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Leaving aside the details here, I assume you agree that Rice flatly denied knowing anything about unmasking the identities of Trump associates. So if it should turn out that there is documented evidence that Rice herself led the effort in doing just that, would you at that point agree that she lied? Or are you disagreeing about something else? could be a nuance here - Did she request ‘unmasking Trump and associates in any/all calls’ or did she requet 'unmasking the other parties in ‘these’ calls? If so - denying that she requested to ‘unmask trump associates’ is perfectly logical - since that is not what she requested. That ‘Trump associates were unmasked due to the request’ is not the same as asking that ‘Trump associates be unmasked’. (it makes sense in my head - may not make any difference in the context of Rice’s questions or may make all the difference) ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/855 "2017-04-04T15:43:18Z")
> [@simster](#): > > could be a nuance here - > > Did she request ‘unmasking Trump and associates in any/all calls’ or did she requet 'unmasking the other parties in ‘these’ calls? > > If so - denying that she requested to ‘unmask trump associates’ is perfectly logical - since that is not what she requested. That ‘Trump associates were unmasked due to the request’ is not the same as asking that ‘Trump associates be unmasked’. > > (it makes sense in my head - may not make any difference in the context of Rice’s questions or may make all the difference) Went back and read the quote in question here - its also possible she asked for the unmasking and never read the reports - would she need to? Part of preserving the evidence but not neccisiarily being concerned with the evidence at the time. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/856 "2017-04-04T15:54:27Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > From [PBS](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/susan-rice-world-wonders-worries-white-house-can-trusted/): “Swept up in surveillance” is pretty damn vague, so who knows. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/857 "2017-04-04T16:27:26Z")
Oh For Fuck Sakes! If Trump & Co. didn’t have an unusually high number of conversations with Russian operatives, conversations they collectively\* lied \*about, then this would not be an issue. I’m going to mention this [chart connecting TeamTrump to TeamRussia](https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/trump-russia/?utm_term=.b6d42948dfb0), again. Links and timelines are the result of investigative reporting conducted by WaPo. National security agencies would be negligent if they did not pay close attention to their own intelligence reports and bring them to the attention of the administration. It’s literally their fucking job to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/858 "2017-04-04T17:14:19Z")
So apparently the new Susan Rice version is that she may or may not have requested unmasking but didn’t do it for political purposes. > **[Rice denies Obama administration inappropriately unmasked Trump team](https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/327197-rice-denies-obama-administration-inappropriately-unmasked-trump-team/)** > > Former national security adviser Susan Rice on Tuesday categorically denied that the Obama administration inappropriately spied on President Trump or members of his transition team.“The allegation … Liar and weasel, looks to me. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/859 "2017-04-04T17:22:29Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > So apparently the new Susan Rice version is that she may or may not have requested unmasking but didn’t do it for political purposes. > > [http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/327197-rice-denies-obama-administration-inappropriately-unmasked-trump-team](http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/327197-rice-denies-obama-administration-inappropriately-unmasked-trump-team) > > Liar and weasel, looks to me. What is the lie? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/860 "2017-04-04T17:24:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “Swept up in surveillance” is pretty damn vague, so who knows. What **F-P** has presented is not a transcript of the question and answer. I’d want to see the actual question asked, and not some paraphrase of it, before deciding if Rice’s answer was truthful. I would expect all reasonable people to want that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384.md?page=44)