# Trump accuses Obama of wiretapping him **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 4, 2017, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384 "2017-03-04T15:07:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 49
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/961 "2017-04-07T16:52:27Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (underline added) > > “Accusations actually are”, “based on what we know of the circumstances”, “by itself”, “actually has evidence” are all important considerations when considering whether there should be an actual, under-oath, investigation into the circumstances surrounding this latest crisis/media circus. > > “Without the need for any under-oath witness testimony” only leads to more speculation. Should the speculation continue, or would you prefer to find out who actually said what, to whom they said it, and can anyone confirm the information under oath? > > “I/he/she/it didn’t do anything wrong”, simply isn’t very convincing, unless you’ve already chosen that you do not need any convincing and unsubstantiated claims are proof enough. So are you supporting a full investigation by Congressional committees with subpeona powers and classified clearances? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/962 "2017-04-07T17:18:32Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > “Without the need for any under-oath witness testimony” only leads to more speculation. Should the speculation continue, or would you prefer to find out who actually said what, to whom they said it, and can anyone confirm the information under oath? For the investigation into possible collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia, I think we need an investigation, with powers to subpoena critical documents. Witness testimony being under oath doesn’t impress me that much, whether they’re under oath or not. For example, I think Trump doesn’t even know when he’s lying, his brain just works that way. As for whether the unmasing of the names by Susan Rice was illegal, I don’t even think we need an investigation. The people who have made that charge also have possession of the evidence to support it if it’s true. If they produce it, then let’s dig deeper, but if they don’t, I would prefer just to let that go like all of Trump’s other lies. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/963 "2017-04-07T18:33:46Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I suggest that they put all of the actual participants under oath, and find out what actually happened. But I’m in favor of investigations. I would also welcome Trump testifying under oath in public session to Congress, along with the criminal penalties for perjury attached. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/964 "2017-04-07T19:23:21Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I would also welcome Trump testifying under oath in public session to Congress, along with the criminal penalties for perjury attached. That would be awesome. He’s bound to lie about something. Hell, it could be anything from, “Did you collude with the Russians?” to “What did you have for breakfast this morning?” but he’ll lie as sure as he’s breathing. He can’t help it. ---
**Author:** ![ganthet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de0a6/32.png) [@ganthet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ganthet)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/965 "2017-04-07T19:26:28Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > As for whether the unmasing of the names by Susan Rice was illegal, I don’t even think we need an investigation. The people who have made that charge also have possession of the evidence to support it if it’s true. If they produce it, then let’s dig deeper, but if they don’t, I would prefer just to let that go like all of Trump’s other lies. Before it can be established that any particular instance of unmasking names was illegal, someone first has to be able to point to a federal law that prohibits it. The people accusing her of wrongdoing haven’t seemed to be able to even do that. Ultimately, the heart of their claim is that after the names were unmasked, Susan Rice is the one who leaked information, at least about Mike Flynn, to the press. That’s the part that the people whipping up this story have produced absolutely no evidence of. And given how leaky the Trump administration itself has been, with apparently even the people there in charge having little to no idea of which of their own people are leaking, it is pretty irresponsible for any of them to slander Susan Rice with leaking accusations. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/966 "2017-04-07T21:19:22Z")
I think the actual argument goes like this: Rice, in her role as security advisor saw what thought were some sketchy dealings going on when intercepts of foreign communications revealed it. She had the American names unmasked, and found one or more connected to the Trump campaign. Nothing illegal about that. When Trump won, Obama feared that this information would go down a rathole once Trump was in the White House. And so he ordered that such intelligence be widely distributed within the government for its own protection. That also had the side-effect of increasing the likelihood of it being leaked, and that the leaker would not be identified, whether or not that was an intended outcome. The more sinister reading of events is that Rice went fishing for dirt on Trump, and when she found it a plan was orchestrated whereby she would unmask those people, and then Obama would write an order that ensured it would be spread widely enough that a friendly liberal somewhere in the government would leak it and hobble the new administration right out of the gate. There is no way to prove the latter, as it would look exactly like the former absent knowing the motivations of the actors. So if it was an act of political sabotage, it was a very clever one. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/967 "2017-04-07T21:56:53Z")
Sam Stone, I see a couple of issues with your scenarios. The charge is that Obama used the government snooping agencies to spy on the Trump campaign before the election, presumably to dig up dirt that would hurt Trump in the election. But in your scenarios, any inappropriate actions were done only after the election, and the unmasking was still done in order to investigate possibly criminal Trump-Russia connections. And the charge with Rice’s unmasking is that it was done inappropriately, for political reasons, not for national security reasons. There is a paper trail that can demonstrate what it was done for. So neither one of your two indistinguishable (from the outside) scenarios is really what the Trump administration is claiming. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/968 "2017-04-07T23:18:08Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > …So neither one of your two indistinguishable (from the outside) scenarios is really what the Trump administration is claiming. The truth is clear and entirely exonerates Trump Co. They just lie from force of habit. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/969 "2017-04-08T00:22:24Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I think the actual argument goes like this: Rice, in her role as security advisor saw what thought were some sketchy dealings going on when intercepts of foreign communications revealed it. She had the American names unmasked, and found one or more connected to the Trump campaign. Nothing illegal about that. > > When Trump won, Obama feared that this information would go down a rathole once Trump was in the White House. And so he ordered that such intelligence be widely distributed within the government for its own protection. That also had the side-effect of increasing the likelihood of it being leaked, and that the leaker would not be identified, whether or not that was an intended outcome. > > The more sinister reading of events is that Rice went fishing for dirt on Trump, and when she found it a plan was orchestrated whereby she would unmask those people, and then Obama would write an order that ensured it would be spread widely enough that a friendly liberal somewhere in the government would leak it and hobble the new administration right out of the gate. > > There is no way to prove the latter, as it would look exactly like the former absent knowing the motivations of the actors. So if it was an act of political sabotage, it was a very clever one. Other than your first paragraph, have you seen any evidence whatsoever that this occurred? Anything at all? I mean, it’s easy to make up stories that make one side or the other look bad. For example, here’s a made up story: The truth is that Trump and Obama are working together to make the Republican party look as foolish as possible. We all know he used to be a Democrat and he’s actually working undercover with the Democrats now to undermine the GOP. See how that’s done? In fact, if I had to choose which of these evidence-free assertions seemed more plausible, I’d probably choose mine, because he’s doing a great job of undermining the GOP. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/970 "2017-04-08T00:24:10Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > …That doesn’t stop others from using that self-professed limited-knowledge answer as proof that Sharon Rice couldn’t possibly have been involved in a politically motivated search for her parties political opponent’s contacts, and conversations. (post shortened) For what it’s worth, I agree that Sharon Rice is a lying jerk. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/971 "2017-04-10T16:27:39Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > So are you supporting a full investigation by Congressional committees with subpeona powers and classified clearances? Is this a trick question? I’m in favor of investigations. Official investigations. Speculation can be amusing hobby, but it doesn’t actually answer any questions. I suspect that there are many people who prefer speculations because they can use those speculations to further their personal agenda. Or to muddy the water. Or because they are afraid of what an official investigation might uncover. So, just to be clear, I’m in favor of investigations. Then let the chips fall where they may. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/972 "2017-04-10T17:35:00Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > (post shortened) > > For what it’s worth, I agree that Sharon Rice is a lying jerk. Ah, Susan? ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/973 "2017-04-10T17:38:22Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Ah, Susan? … proving yet again that sarcasm in written form doesn’t work without an appropriate emoticon. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/974 "2017-04-10T17:41:33Z")
I have no doubt that friend **RitterSport** is perfectly capable of sarcasm. There are…others…who do not have my confidence. 'Nuff sed. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/975 "2017-04-10T17:46:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Ah, Susan? I wasn’t sure who Sharon Rice was either, to be honest. **doorhinge** is the one who mentioned her first. Susan Rice, though, may or may not have been truthful. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/976 "2017-04-10T17:48:23Z")
Didn’t doubt you, lad. Kinda thought you were playing along, tongue in check. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/977 "2017-04-10T19:50:26Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > In my analogy, the blind man is the person who doesn’t have access to all the facts, but is still willing to answer questions put to him by the media. To the best of his limited ability, of course. > > That doesn’t stop others from using that self-professed limited-knowledge answer as proof that Sharon Rice couldn’t possibly have been involved in a politically motivated search for her parties political opponent’s contacts, and conversations. > > I suggest that they put all of the actual participants under oath, and find out what actually happened. But I’m in favor of investigations. Correction. Mea culpa. I meant Susan Rice, not Sharon Rice. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/978 "2017-04-10T20:07:18Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Is this a trick question? I’m in favor of investigations. Official investigations. Speculation can be amusing hobby, but it doesn’t actually answer any questions. > > I suspect that there are many people who prefer speculations because they can use those speculations to further their personal agenda. Or to muddy the water. Or because they are afraid of what an official investigation might uncover. > > So, just to be clear, I’m in favor of investigations. Then let the chips fall where they may. Where do Trump’s tweets fall on your continuum of investigation versus speculation? And who has said they’re against an investigation into Trump’s allegations? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/979 "2017-04-10T20:30:06Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Where do Trump’s tweets fall on your continuum of investigation versus speculation? And who has said they’re against an investigation into Trump’s allegations? Tweets (a modern form of communication) can lead to official investigations. I don’t tweet, but I don’t condemn others for doing so. I might just point and laugh at the tweets/twitter/twits. Then we’re both in favor of an official investigation into the accusations surrounding the possibility that Russians/Chinese/Democrats/Obama/Rice may have been using fake news/wiretapping/spying/political intrigue to influence the last Presidential election. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/980 "2017-04-10T20:58:46Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Tweets (a modern form of communication) can lead to official investigations. I don’t tweet, but I don’t condemn others for doing so. I might just point and laugh at the tweets/twitter/twits. > > Then we’re both in favor of an official investigation into the accusations surrounding the possibility that Russians/Chinese/Democrats/Obama/Rice may have been using fake news/wiretapping/spying/political intrigue to influence the last Presidential election. Sure, as long as there is evidence that China/Democrats/Obama/Rice did anything of the sort, we’ll get right on that after the Russian investigation which has tons and tons of evidence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384.md?page=48) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384.md?page=50)