# Trump accuses Obama of wiretapping him **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 4, 2017, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384 "2017-03-04T15:07:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/141 "2017-03-06T02:04:05Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > I am pretty sure Obama was smart enough to have loads of plausible deniability if he did. > > “Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest?” Or Trump was totally making shit up about Obama with zero evidence, like he did before for many years. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/142 "2017-03-06T02:50:15Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > I am pretty sure Obama was smart enough to have loads of plausible deniability if he did. > > “Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest?” Hi! Could I have a cite for this, and while you’re at it, a cite that WAPO or the NY Times stated, in an article, not an op-ed, that Trump colluded with the Russins? Thanks in advance. This is GD, not the Pit or the Wild Speculation Board, so please bring cites to your statements. ---
**Author:** ![CatandMouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@CatandMouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CatandMouse)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/143 "2017-03-06T02:59:12Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Habit. But he’s jeopardizing doing “racism” which is what he really wants to do as AG. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/144 "2017-03-06T03:16:30Z")
[The Obama Camp’s Disingenuous Denials on FISA Surveillance of Trump](http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/445504/obama-camp-disingenuous-denials-fisa-surveillance-trump) ---
**Author:** ![barath\_s](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@barath\_s](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barath_s)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/145 "2017-03-06T03:25:28Z")
> [@DataX](#): > > That was a biased congressional investigation - we need an independent prosector Ken Starr was an independent prosecutor. He was biased too, or at the very least, wilfully took his prosecution remit beyond hand ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/146 "2017-03-06T03:29:44Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > [The Obama Camp’s Disingenuous Denials on FISA Surveillance of Trump](http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/445504/obama-camp-disingenuous-denials-fisa-surveillance-trump) a) DoJ != Obama, despite what the completely non-partisan and unbiased National Review might say. b) What is your recommendation? If it looks like a political candidate may genuinely be colluding with an enemy government, _don’t_ investigate them? While it is certainly problematic to have political investigations, when everything is being run by highly partisan overseers, doing nothing isn’t really an answer either. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/147 "2017-03-06T03:34:33Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > [The Obama Camp’s Disingenuous Denials on FISA Surveillance of Trump](http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/445504/obama-camp-disingenuous-denials-fisa-surveillance-trump) That article is a load of crap, and is nothing more than a “if Trump said it, then it must be true” piece of nothing. To excerpt the relevant “smoking gun” bits. > [@](#): > > President Trump’s early Saturday morning tweeting has exploded to the forefront an uncovered scandal I’ve been talking about since early January (including in this weekend’s column): The fact that the Obama Justice Department and the FBI investigated . . . likely Trump himself, in the heat of the presidential campaign. . . . or how about: > [@](#): > > To summarize, reporting indicates that, prior to June 2016, the Obama Justice Department and FBI considered a criminal investigation of . . . perhaps Trump himself So, it’s a “fact” that _maybe_ Trump was investigated by the FBI? Please. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/148 "2017-03-06T03:34:43Z")
Trump should know that Obama couldn’t order the wiretap. Obama only claimed the authority to assassinate US citizens without due process. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/149 "2017-03-06T03:39:34Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Trump should know that Obama couldn’t order the wiretap. Obama only claimed the authority to assassinate US citizens without due process. That meanie! (If you meant to post something relevant to the thread, my apologies; you may wish, in that case, to clarify what the hell you think your post has to do with the subject at hand.) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/150 "2017-03-06T03:50:35Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > [The Obama Camp’s Disingenuous Denials on FISA Surveillance of Trump](http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/445504/obama-camp-disingenuous-denials-fisa-surveillance-trump) An article full of weasel words, like “seems” and “personally” used to conclude that those denials are “disingenuous” in other words, the writer there has nothing. And in the end it goes once again about Hillary (‘but her emails!!!’). Let it go. It is Trump and his cabinet the ones that we have to deal with and what is happening is this: > **[Everything’s A Conspiracy - Digby's Hullabaloo](https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/03/how-deep-is-trumps-rabbit-hole-by.html)** > > https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1815444888608989540 Trump's team is reportedly super loyal to him so this is pretty stupid in any case. They just screwed up on a grand scale. Cheatle resigned which I think is fine since the buck has to stop... > [@](#): > > [QUOTE= Steve Benen‏] > If Trump made this up, the president appears delusional. > If he didn’t, the evidence against Trump must be alarmingly serious. > Either way… As Digby pointed out yesterday, this is what comes of a president getting his news from the fever swamps at Breitbart. (Didn’t he have plans for draining swamps?) The New York Times reports that the White House, rather than tamping down Trump’s rage tweets, is going even deeper down the rabbit hole: > [@](#): > > But a senior White House official said that Donald F. McGahn II, the president’s chief counsel, was working to secure access to what Mr. McGahn believed to be an order issued by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court authorizing some form of surveillance related to Mr. Trump and his associates. > > ``` > The official offered no evidence to support the notion that such an order exists. It would be a highly unusual breach of the Justice Department’s traditional independence on law enforcement matters for the White House to order it to turn over such an investigative document. > > ``` \*\* Yes, that would be interfering in an ongoing investigation.\*\* [QUOTE=Justin Miller] What’s scarier, White House reportedly interfering with investigation or not knowing that saying this is tantamount to a confession? [/QUOTE] [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/151 "2017-03-06T03:53:40Z")
I think either way we’ve crossed a significant line. If trump really was wiretapped (as seems very unlikely at this point, given Comey, Clapper + Obama office statements), it would be because they had probable cause – and what that evidence was will now be revealed more quickly thanks to Trump’s tweets. If it’s another lie, it’s a serious and specific lie with repercussions for trump. He’ll have to publicly climb down, possibly after wasting a lot of public money first (yes, a lot of money was wasted over Benghazi, but that time there wasn’t a specific individual to blame for it). OTOH If it’s a lie and he _doesn’t_ climb down, then we can be sure now he’s never going to climb down over anything, and the lies are just going to get bigger and bigger. It would just be a matter of time before he says something that provokes an international or civil war. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/152 "2017-03-06T03:57:40Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > It’s actually worse for Trump if his accusation turns out to be true. First of all, the first part of his accusation, that a sitting president can order a wiretap on any private citizen, is absolutely false, no ifs, ands or buts. So that is impossible, no ifs, ands or buts. So if Trump _were_ wiretapped, that means someone showed enough evidence to make a Fisa Court believe such wiretapping was called for. And if that’s the case, I doubt Traitor Trump would want this brought to light. Oh, and how much evidence does it take to make a FISA court authorise wire tapping? [From 2013:](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/03/fisa-court-rubber-stamp-drones) > [@](#): > > From the start, the Fisa court was a radical perversion of the judicial process. It convened in total secrecy and its rulings were classified. **The standard the government had to meet was not the traditional “probable cause” burden imposed by the Fourth Amendment but a significantly diluted standard.** There was nothing adversarial about the proceeding: only the Justice Department (DOJ) was permitted to be present, but not any lawyers for the targets of the eavesdropping request, who were not notified. Reflecting its utter lack of real independence, the court itself was housed in the DOJ. > > And, and was totally predictable, the court barely ever rejected a government request for eavesdropping. From its inception, it was the ultimate rubber-stamp court, having rejected a total of zero government applications - zero - in its first 24 years of existence, while approving many thousands. **In its total 34 year history - from 1978 through 2012 - the Fisa court has rejected a grand total of 11 government applications, while approving more than 20,000.** (Bolding mine) ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/153 "2017-03-06T04:02:53Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Oh, and how much evidence does it take to make a FISA court authorise wire tapping? > > “The standard the government had to meet was not the traditional “probable cause” burden imposed by the Fourth Amendment but a significantly diluted standard.” > … > “In its total 34 year history - from 1978 through 2012 - the Fisa court has rejected a grand total of 11 government applications, while approving more than 20,000.” And even with all that, according to the reports, FISA court did refuse the first DoJ’s warrant request against Trump. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/154 "2017-03-06T04:09:24Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > And even with all that, according to the reports, FISA court did refuse the first DoJ’s warrant request against Trump. One of your cites said that it wasn’t at all clear that the request was “against” Trump. Should we believe the source you cited or not? [As I have stressed](http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/445504/obama-camp-disingenuous-denials-fisa-surveillance-trump), _ **it is unclear whether “named” in this context indicates that Trump himself was cited as a person the Justice Department was** _ alleging was a Russian agent _ **whom it wanted to surveil** _. It could instead mean that Trump’s name was merely mentioned in an application that sought to conduct surveillance on other alleged Russian agents. in October 2016…the Justice Department submitted a narrowly tailored application that _ **did not mention Trump** _. The court apparently granted it, authorizing surveillance of some Trump _ **associates** _. Is this guy credible or not? If he is credible, why don’t you believe the message he has “stressed”? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/155 "2017-03-06T04:21:28Z")
As another writer for the National Review puts it: > **[Dear Trump, Be a Team Leader, Not a Lone Ranger | National Review](https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/03/trump-lone-ranger-gop-needs-team-leader/)** > > Whatever the truth about Trump, Obama and Russia, the president’s behavior is a recipe for mistrust among his allies. > [@](#): > > Regardless of who is right, wrong, or merely confused on the issue of Trump, Obama, and Russia, the president’s behavior is a recipe for exasperation and mistrust among his allies. “How in the world can we go out on a limb for a guy who won’t tell us in advance that it won’t be sawed off,” one GOP congressman who was an early backer of Trump told me. **“If you head a team, you have to lead it.”** \*\* If Donald Trump is playing the role of a canny Columbo in checkmating his adversaries, it’s not obvious. With his impulsive tweeting, he more closely resembles a high-tech version of stumbling Inspector Clouseau.\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/156 "2017-03-06T04:26:52Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > One of your cites said that it wasn’t at all clear that the request was “against” Trump. > Should we believe the source you cited or not? If you want to quibble with the word - I will revise my statement: “And even with all that, according to the reports, FISA court did refuse the first DoJ’s warrant request that named Trump.” But all these reports come based on anonymous sources, thus suspect and not reliable (which BTW also applies to all the articles in WaPo and NYT solely based on anonymous sources - yet those are quite accepted as reliable on this forum). ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/157 "2017-03-06T04:41:14Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > If you want to quibble with the word - I will revise my statement: > > “And even with all that, according to the reports, FISA court did refuse the first DoJ’s warrant request that named Trump.” If there were a FISA warrant issued “against” Trump, that would mean that a FISC judge decided it was reasonable to consider Trump a foreign spy. Imho, Trump as foreign agent seems a bit far-fetched on its face. It would take a contrived set of circumstances for that to be a reasonable conclusion for a FISC judge. When you say that the warrant was “against” Trump, you’re saying that you find it likely a FISC judge decided Trump was an agent of a foreign country. That’s the target of FISA warrants, afaict—foreign spies. Does it seems reasonable that a FISC judge would decide Trump was a foreign agent? Does that seem more likely than Trump making a hyperbolic statement? ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/158 "2017-03-06T05:03:02Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > If there were a FISA warrant issued “against” Trump, that would mean that a FISC judge decided it was reasonable to consider Trump a foreign spy. It’s pretty weird, if true (wouldn’t you say?) that the first warrant naming Trump that was requested by DOJ from FISA court was rejected, considering that FISA court rejected only 11 out of 20,000 or so applications before that? That would mean that the DOJ’s case, whatever it was, was laughably weak. Considering just how rubber-stampish FISA seems to be, according to those numbers. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/159 "2017-03-06T05:27:43Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > It’s pretty weird, if true (wouldn’t you say?) that the first warrant naming Trump that was requested by DOJ from FISA court was rejected, considering that FISA court rejected only 11 out of 20,000 or so applications before that? > > That would mean that the DOJ’s case, whatever it was, was laughably weak. Considering just how rubber-stampish FISA seems to be, according to those numbers. It’s also weird how the warrant that _was_ approved did not mention Trump [as your source tells it anyway]. But somehow, in the minds of some folks on the Internet, Obama tapped Trump’s phones via FISA warrant. Weird, don’t’chya think? ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384/160 "2017-03-06T05:32:58Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > It’s also weird how the warrant that _was_ approved did not mention Trump [as your source tells it anyway]. > But somehow, in the minds of some folks on the Internet, Obama tapped Trump’s phones via FISA warrant. > > Weird, don’t’chya think? If Trump’s phone was tapped (whether he was named in the warrant or not) then Trump’s phone was tapped. Wouldn’t you say? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-him/781384.md?page=9)