# Trump administration proposed to meet Kim Jong Un **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 28, 2018, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-administration-proposed-to-meet-kim-jong-un/811352 "2018-03-28T14:42:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-administration-proposed-to-meet-kim-jong-un/811352/41 "2018-03-29T21:22:57Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > If Kim leaves the country to meet with Trump, what is the possibility of a coup d’etat? He comes back and his key doesn’t fit the gate at the border any more? I’d say it’s essentially zero, though maybe a very small probability. About the same as a coup to depose Trump and perhaps trade him to North Korea in return for…well, I can’t think of anything low value enough to trade for that they would agree too. Maybe in return for Denis Rodman’s ball ring or something that he accidentally left behind on his most recent trip. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-administration-proposed-to-meet-kim-jong-un/811352/42 "2018-03-29T22:22:02Z")
> [@XT](#): > > You are misreading what I’m saying. I never said that China and North Korea were living and working in harmony. This trip was about North Korea reaching out to try and bridge some of the gap and distance that has happened over the last few years, and to bolster North Korea’s position wrt the US and the theoretical talks. North Korea was in a bad position with basically everyone against their nuclear and missile tests, so they needed to take steps to not be completely isolated. And in this case, a rapprochement worked for both parties…both got a lot out of this. > > I think you are wrong that China feels irritated they have to play catch-up…I think they have been positioned themselves pretty well in all of this and I think they are generally pretty happy about where things are at right now. They certainly were irritated at North Korea for pushing things as they did and not listening when they were warned to back off, but they have been able to basically play both sides against each other and come out looking the best overall in this mess. And whether it goes well or ill (assuming the talks even happen) China gets a boost that they really need. I think the importance of the Xi-Kim meeting being held initially in secret should not be overlooked. That suggests that the Chinese have so little control over Kim that they could not publicize the meeting until afterward, i.e., when they could be sure that he would cooperate and play nice for the cameras. I don’t see that that makes China look good or that they would be happy with the world knowing that. Nor does it suggest that North Korea reached out to China (as opposed to being summoned). I don’t see how China played both sides against one another. China looks like it’s scrambling to stay relevant. They got a show of unity from this meeting with Kim, but that’s kind of the minimum expectation. I’m not sure there’s any evidence that anything concrete came from it. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-administration-proposed-to-meet-kim-jong-un/811352/43 "2018-03-29T22:40:16Z")
The Chinese kept his father’s visits secret until after he left. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-administration-proposed-to-meet-kim-jong-un/811352/44 "2018-03-29T23:23:52Z")
Why did Kim take a train to Beijing? Seems that it would saved a lot of time and required a lot less logistics to fly. NK is not giving up their nukes. Forget about it. Best the US can do is have them freeze development. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-administration-proposed-to-meet-kim-jong-un/811352/45 "2018-03-29T23:48:17Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > China is not completely impotent. They’re North Korea’s largest economic partner - that’s not insignificant. The economic pressure on the Kim regime can never be ignored. It’s one thing when North Korea civilians starve; it’s another when North Korean soldiers starve and begin to suffer – and ultimately defect. The pressure of sanctions is real, and China alleviates that pressure. That is a fair point, but at the same time China isn’t willing to cut off petroleum supplies that would severely hurt the DPRK. China, > [@XT](#): > > Oh, it’s more useful to them than just that. North Korea allows China to play on a larger stage and as a bargaining chip to use with and against the US. I disagree. Gamblers have control of their bargaining chips. China has no control over DPRK, which has led to their substantial changes in policy toward them over the last year. > [@](#): > > It’s also useful internally, as it’s a good example of how much worse things could be than under the CCP. Xi is a good example when compared against lil’ Kimmy 3.0 (or the Orange Haired one for that matter). Maybe things have changed, but the short time I lived in China, nobody really talked about DPRK. And I would suspect that no Chinese would really be concerned about the economy in North Korea, because after all, they are just filthy Koreans, while they are part of the Middle Kingdom. > [@](#): > > To act more like the client state they are and to allow China to set the beat, most likely. I don’t think China has any illusions anymore that they can treat DPRK like a client state. Not in decades, really. That sounds like Trump level of sophistication of thinking: “Zhi-na can’t just tell Kim what to do - so I’m going to tariff Zhi-na until they fix it!” > [@](#): > > But really, China just wants North Korea in their sphere of influence and a thorn in the US’s side, as well as something they can use to distract South Korea, Japan and the US as well as other regional and international players and also to demonstrate the same thing I said about the internal stuff… Again, I think China thinks of DPRK as a huge pain in the ass that they’d rather not deal with, not rubbing their hands together and enjoying what a basket case they are. > [@](#): > > Well, maybe our planets aren’t so different in all respects after all. 🙂 Certain truths are universal. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-administration-proposed-to-meet-kim-jong-un/811352/46 "2018-03-29T23:57:34Z")
How do y’all think [this brilliant Trump strategic move](https://apnews.com/14ddb60d53c3476c925bc82ea7c3597a/Trump-warns-he-may-freeze-SKorea-trade-deal-for-NKorea-talks) will play out? > [@](#): > > President Donald Trump on Thursday threatened to hold up the trade agreement his administration finalized this week with South Korea in an effort to gain more leverage in potential talks with North Korea. > > Speaking on infrastructure in Ohio, Trump highlighted the recently completed renegotiation of the Korea-U.S. free trade agreement. But he warned: “I may hold it up until after a deal is made with North Korea.” The announcement comes as the two Koreas have announced plans to hold bilateral meetings next month in advance of a possible meeting between Trump and North Korea’s Kim Jong Un by the end of May. > > Trump noted the “rhetoric has calmed down” with North Korea, but added he may put a hold on the first trade agreement concluded by his administration, “because it’s a very strong card and I want to make sure everyone is treated fairly.” > > Trump did not explain what leverage the U.S. would achieve by holding up the trade deal with South Korea. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-administration-proposed-to-meet-kim-jong-un/811352/47 "2018-03-30T00:45:31Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > …Again, I think China thinks of DPRK as a huge pain in the ass that they’d rather not deal with, not rubbing their hands together and enjoying what a basket case they are. North Korea is a buffer against South Korea and US influences, lest Chinese folks find out how good the South Koreans have it being pals with the US of A. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-administration-proposed-to-meet-kim-jong-un/811352/48 "2018-03-30T01:12:00Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > North Korea is a buffer against South Korea and US influences, lest Chinese folks find out how good the South Koreans have it being pals with the US of A. There are large numbers of Chinese tourists that go to South Korea (Japan, Australia, Canada, and the US too for that matter, not to mention Europe) so I don’t think that’s the case. What they DO see is how bad things are in North Korea and how comparatively good they have it compared to that hell hole. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-administration-proposed-to-meet-kim-jong-un/811352/49 "2018-03-30T04:27:18Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > China is basically impotent when it comes to North Korea. It cannot cajole sense into KJU, and it can’t up its economic pressure to much for fear of having North Korea collapse and leave a huge mess on China’s doorstep. North Korea is to China as a meth-using dropout teenager is to his codependent parents. There’s no win-win for China in any scenario. There’s no China pulling any strings in this scenario. China has hitched its wagon to a tiger, and there’s no good way to disentangle itself now. The difference is most parents, no matter how frustrated they are with their child, aren’t going to resolve the problem by putting a bullet into the back of their child’s head. China would not hesitate to have Kim killed and his regime replaced if they thought he was becoming too much trouble. I’m sure they already have several NK generals on the Chinese payroll just in case. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-administration-proposed-to-meet-kim-jong-un/811352/50 "2018-03-30T04:30:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Trump did not explain what leverage the U.S. would achieve by holding up the trade deal with South Korea. Is Trump aware there are two Koreas? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-administration-proposed-to-meet-kim-jong-un/811352/51 "2018-03-30T04:58:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Is Trump aware there are two Koreas? It’s not clear that he is aware that there are seperate northern and southern hemispheres on the planet. Expecting him to understand the nuances of geopolitics such as the existence individual countries beyond “United States”, “Russia”, and “Ghina” is probably a bridge too far. He still thinks the young boy [whose hand he refused to shake](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V_Hry0OACF0) was from the “Jormanny” neighborhood of Washington, D.C. He [knows the shit out of meatloaf](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dGSd3Pti3gU), though. “And the meatloaf was good!”, says the beached whale who clearly eats everything in sight. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-administration-proposed-to-meet-kim-jong-un/811352/52 "2018-03-30T10:13:27Z")
> [@XT](#): > > There are large numbers of Chinese tourists that go to South Korea (Japan, Australia, Canada, and the US too for that matter, not to mention Europe) so I don’t think that’s the case. What they DO see is how bad things are in North Korea and how comparatively good they have it compared to that hell hole. Thanks, XT. The guys who work in the factories that are fenced in travel? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-administration-proposed-to-meet-kim-jong-un/811352/53 "2018-03-30T11:05:25Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > If Kim leaves the country to meet with Trump, what is the possibility of a coup d’etat? He comes back and his key doesn’t fit the gate at the border any more? Regimes like Kim’s (like those of Saddam and Assad) are obsessed with power and survival. Over the decades, they have undoubtedly installed multiple tripwires that are in place to detect even the slightest hint of a coup - to the point of triggering false alarms that end up killing people whose only offense might have simply been not being deferential enough or looking at Kim the wrong way. If two important people meet and speak in secret, there’s a chance Kim will know about it, and those two who spoke in secret will be dealt with. If someone whispers something negative about Kim, he will know about it, and there will be consequences. Everyone around Kim lives with that fear of being labeled disloyal. I highly doubt a coup will happen - not unless the situation is so dire that you essentially have mass defections among lower and middle ranks of the military. Now _that_ might do it. Once the structure of his power visibly collapses, Kim has problems. But not until then. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-administration-proposed-to-meet-kim-jong-un/811352/54 "2018-03-30T12:29:48Z")
According to _Escape From Camp 14_, informing is a popular pastime in North Korean prison camps. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-administration-proposed-to-meet-kim-jong-un/811352/55 "2018-03-30T12:46:27Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The difference is most parents, no matter how frustrated they are with their child, aren’t going to resolve the problem by putting a bullet into the back of their child’s head. China would not hesitate to have Kim killed and his regime replaced if they thought he was becoming too much trouble. I’m sure they already have several NK generals on the Chinese payroll just in case. On the basis that a gratuitous assertion may be equally gratuitously denied: Nuh-uh. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-administration-proposed-to-meet-kim-jong-un/811352/56 "2018-03-30T14:02:48Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I disagree. Gamblers have control of their bargaining chips. China has no control over DPRK, which has led to their substantial changes in policy toward them over the last year. North Korea is completely dependent on China for the vast majority of their hard currency and trade. The fact that Kim has been willing to sacrifice his people in droves to defy China is not equivalent to China having zero leverage against North Korea. Another factor, in the past at least, is that China (even the CCP) isn’t some monolithic entity, all moving in lockstep. There are various factions in the CCP and in China, and some supported North Korea either openly or under the table, transferring technology or hard currency in exchange for natural resources. That has narrowed somewhat, however, under Xi’s grand ‘corruption’ witch hunt (which is mainly aimed at Xi and his factions enemies). > [@](#): > > I don’t think China has any illusions anymore that they can treat DPRK like a client state. Not in decades, really. That sounds like Trump level of sophistication of thinking: “Zhi-na can’t just tell Kim what to do - so I’m going to tariff Zhi-na until they fix it!” It’s way to complex for a Trump level of sophistication. > [@](#): > > Again, I think China thinks of DPRK as a huge pain in the ass that they’d rather not deal with, not rubbing their hands together and enjoying what a basket case they are. I disagree for the reasons I’ve said. No sense beating a dead horse, we disagree. Not the first time. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-administration-proposed-to-meet-kim-jong-un/811352/57 "2018-03-30T14:30:49Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I disagree. Gamblers have control of their bargaining chips. China has no control over DPRK, which has led to their substantial changes in policy toward them over the last year. China may not necessarily _control_ NK, but they still have considerable influence. A country’s largest trading partner will always have influence, particularly over the longer term. The reason that China has had seemingly less influence over North Korea in the last decade has to do with North Korea’s sense of urgency in acquiring its own nuclear capabilities. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-administration-proposed-to-meet-kim-jong-un/811352/58 "2018-03-30T16:10:43Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > On the basis that a gratuitous assertion may be equally gratuitously denied: > > Nuh-uh. Are you saying you don’t believe the Chinese government would have somebody killed? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-administration-proposed-to-meet-kim-jong-un/811352/59 "2018-03-30T16:36:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Are you saying you don’t believe the Chinese government would have somebody killed? No. I’m saying what you posted is unsubstantiated speculation that is very likely wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-administration-proposed-to-meet-kim-jong-un/811352/60 "2018-03-31T14:20:19Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > North Korea aren’t giving up their nukes. Their nukes are how they will avoid an invasion, and how they will raise billions of dollars by selling nukes and nuclear technology overseas. Nukes are the best insurance policy the regime has to stay in power. > > I don’t see the point in a meeting. Especially with Trump, who is in over his head. > > It bothers me the way Fox acted like Obama meeting with Un was a horrible mistake, but now that a republican is president they are falling over themselves to say what a great idea it is. > > [http://www.newsweek.com/fox-news-video-trump-obama-north-korea-848618](http://www.newsweek.com/fox-news-video-trump-obama-north-korea-848618) Peace through strength works, Reagan proved it. I think North Korea is willing to change their behavior a little in exchange for some sanctions lifted. I’m not saying they will give up their nuclear weapons; instead, they will stop firing missiles over Japan and making saber-ratting statements The meeting is a good thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-administration-proposed-to-meet-kim-jong-un/811352.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-administration-proposed-to-meet-kim-jong-un/811352.md?page=4)