# Trump ally and conservative pundit Charlie Kirk shot at Utah event \[now reported deceased, same date 10SEP2025\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [September 10, 2025, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ally-and-conservative-pundit-charlie-kirk-shot-at-utah-event-now-reported-deceased-same-date-10sep2025/1022916 "2025-09-10T19:04:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2025, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ally-and-conservative-pundit-charlie-kirk-shot-at-utah-event-now-reported-deceased-same-date-10sep2025/1022916/901 "2025-09-13T14:22:45Z")
The alternative to “mentally ill” would be someone like John Wilkes Booth, who was part of an organized conspiracy, had an escape plan, and a clear political motive. The right would have loved for this have been the case here. It was not. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2025, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ally-and-conservative-pundit-charlie-kirk-shot-at-utah-event-now-reported-deceased-same-date-10sep2025/1022916/902 "2025-09-13T14:25:22Z")
See most post above. I don’t know a whole lot of the history here, but it seems Von Stauffenberg analyzed the risk/reward and was willing to make a logical, personal sacrifice for the betterment of humanity. So not irrational. Charlie Kirk was no Hitler, and sacrificing your life to kill him is hard to rationalize. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2025, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ally-and-conservative-pundit-charlie-kirk-shot-at-utah-event-now-reported-deceased-same-date-10sep2025/1022916/903 "2025-09-13T14:28:19Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > it seems Von Stauffenberg analyzed the risk/reward and was willing to make a logical, personal sacrifice for the betterment of humanity. So not irrational. > > Charlie Kirk was no Hitler, and sacrificing your life to kill him is hard to rationalize. I endorse this reply. Kirk didn’t have the power and authority that Hitler had in that scenario. It’s an entirely different situation. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2025, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ally-and-conservative-pundit-charlie-kirk-shot-at-utah-event-now-reported-deceased-same-date-10sep2025/1022916/904 "2025-09-13T14:28:24Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > As I understand it, some of the right wing criticism was because Kirk was _downplaying_ the importance of Epstein. He was saying that we should take the word of the government that there is nothing there, angering many who have been clamoring for its release. Yeah I may have misstated the dynamics on that, as I’m not super deep in the weeds on extremist beefs. Taking another look it appears that the Groypers were actually angry at Kirk for the opposite reason, that he backed off the Epstein story in July 2025. So the recency and anger does point to the Groypers, though I goofed on the exact reasoning. Though I still think it’s really more about the eternal right-wing inter-factional warring over influence, access, and audience. Kirk in particular was growing his access and influence to Trump himself, which would’ve sidelined Nick Fuentes’ radical movement, which I think made the Groypers start seeing more reasons to hate Kirk. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2025, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ally-and-conservative-pundit-charlie-kirk-shot-at-utah-event-now-reported-deceased-same-date-10sep2025/1022916/905 "2025-09-13T14:30:44Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Or: he hated him. Is killing someone you hate simply because you hate them irrational? Yes, because the benefit of killing him is outweighed by the cost of losing out access to society because you are now a murderer. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2025, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ally-and-conservative-pundit-charlie-kirk-shot-at-utah-event-now-reported-deceased-same-date-10sep2025/1022916/906 "2025-09-13T14:31:04Z")
Even if the target was Trump, von Stauffenberg had the resources and a plan to follow up after the assassination. That elevates him above Booth in terms of rationality, probably. But Booth was far more successful in achieving his goals; we’re still dealing with the fallout of the Johnson presidency 150 years later. Some rando killing Trump would also most likely be irrational as the likely outcome is a Vance presidency that changes nothing about the fascist trajectory of our country. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2025, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ally-and-conservative-pundit-charlie-kirk-shot-at-utah-event-now-reported-deceased-same-date-10sep2025/1022916/907 "2025-09-13T14:32:59Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > But as long as we’re spitballing here on the Dope, I’m going to say that this looks like the actions of a mentally ill person. I’d say that even if the killing was politically motivated, ie he was a either Uber far right or far left and killed Kirk because of political reasons, he’s still probably dealing with _some_ kind of mental illness. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2025, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ally-and-conservative-pundit-charlie-kirk-shot-at-utah-event-now-reported-deceased-same-date-10sep2025/1022916/908 "2025-09-13T14:34:05Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Kirk in particular was growing his access and influence to Trump himself, which would’ve sidelined Nick Fuentes’ radical movement Fuentes is distancing himself from any violence right now. I’m sure he’s very concerned for his own safety. > [@](#): > > “This is a very delicate situation. I fear that this has set off a chain reaction. I pray to God there is no further violence. I pray to God that nobody else is hurt as a result of this. I hope that it stops here. It should stop here. To all of my followers: if you take up arms, I disavow you. I disown you in the strongest possible terms,” Fuentes said on Rumble > **[Why Nick Fuentes, extreme far right commentator and Charlie Kirk critic,...](https://m.economictimes.com/news/international/us/why-nick-fuentes-extreme-far-right-commentator-and-charlie-kirk-critic-issued-a-big-warning-to-his-followers-after-his-assassination-heres-what-he-said/amp_articleshow/123867309.cms)** > > Following the assassination of Charlie Kirk at Utah Valley University, Nicholas Joseph Fuentes cautioned his followers against resorting to violence, stating he would disavow any who did. Fuentes, who has been a critic of Kirk, expressed devastation... ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2025, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ally-and-conservative-pundit-charlie-kirk-shot-at-utah-event-now-reported-deceased-same-date-10sep2025/1022916/909 "2025-09-13T14:34:47Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > On the basis of your first paragraph, would you spitball that [Claus von Stauffenberg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_July_plot) was a mentally ill person? You don’t see the difference between a resistance plot to assassinate the leader of the regime ruling their country, and some random kid acting alone to blow the head off a pundit? ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2025, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ally-and-conservative-pundit-charlie-kirk-shot-at-utah-event-now-reported-deceased-same-date-10sep2025/1022916/910 "2025-09-13T14:36:18Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > he was a either Uber far right or far left and killed Kirk because of political reasons, he’s still probably dealing with _some_ kind of mental illness. And that was my original point. I think he’s got _some_ level of mental illness going on, but I also think “why Charlie Kirk?” is going to be answered by his ideology. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2025, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ally-and-conservative-pundit-charlie-kirk-shot-at-utah-event-now-reported-deceased-same-date-10sep2025/1022916/911 "2025-09-13T14:37:28Z")
That’s only if you put your own self-interest ahead of your ideology and your own definition of the good of whatever group you see yourself as part of. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that people who kill for a cause are inherently irrational, if only because the vast majority of killings throughout history were for that reason. In other words, killing Kirk because he’s a space alien would be irrational. Killing him because he’s your enemy? Not necessarily irrational. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2025, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ally-and-conservative-pundit-charlie-kirk-shot-at-utah-event-now-reported-deceased-same-date-10sep2025/1022916/912 "2025-09-13T14:39:28Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > Fuentes is distancing himself from any violence right now. I’m sure he’s very concerned for his own safety And Shapiro just cancelled a book tour. He would be a logical target if someone wanted to copycat. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2025, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ally-and-conservative-pundit-charlie-kirk-shot-at-utah-event-now-reported-deceased-same-date-10sep2025/1022916/913 "2025-09-13T14:42:25Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > Fuentes is distancing himself from any violence right now. I’m sure he’s very concerned for his own safety. Well yeah. Though Fuentes probably wasn’t a fan of Kirk, he almost definitely didn’t want to be in the middle of what’s shaping up to be a gang war between extremist factions. Fuentes was never a soldier, always a grifter, and he’d much prefer the grifting to fighting. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2025, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ally-and-conservative-pundit-charlie-kirk-shot-at-utah-event-now-reported-deceased-same-date-10sep2025/1022916/914 "2025-09-13T14:43:34Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I don’t know a whole lot of the history here, but it seems Von Stauffenberg analyzed the risk/reward and was willing to make a logical, personal sacrifice for the betterment of humanity. So not irrational. > > Charlie Kirk was no Hitler, and sacrificing your life to kill him is hard to rationalize. Von Stauffenberg had an escape plan. He was not in the room when the bomb exploded. Unfortunately, someone had moved it, and the assassination attempt was unsuccessful. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2025, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ally-and-conservative-pundit-charlie-kirk-shot-at-utah-event-now-reported-deceased-same-date-10sep2025/1022916/915 "2025-09-13T14:44:07Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > You don’t see the difference between a resistance plot to assassinate the leader of the regime ruling their country, and some random kid acting alone to blow the head off a pundit? You don’t see that von Stauffenberg was a reductio ad absurdum? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2025, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ally-and-conservative-pundit-charlie-kirk-shot-at-utah-event-now-reported-deceased-same-date-10sep2025/1022916/916 "2025-09-13T14:45:07Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s only if you put your own self-interest ahead of your ideology and your own definition of the good of whatever group you see yourself as part of. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that people who kill for a cause are inherently irrational, if only because the vast majority of killings throughout history were for that reason. For sure, I agree, but what makes it irrational is that neither the Groypers nor the Far Left (the two ideological camps that were presented as possibly motivated for a “rational” assassination) are engaged in _that kind of war_ with Kirk or his followers. This is an ideological battle, not open warfare. In that context, sacrificing yourself to take out Kirk is the height of idiocy. If a Civil War II broke out and Kirk was leading a brigade from Arizona to California, assassinating him would make sense. Even if he was back in the Neo-Confederate Heartland raising troops and coordinating logistics, it may very well make sense. But that’s not the world we live in; and having such a poor grasp of the reality of the situation that you act in such an inappropriate way is the irrational part. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2025, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ally-and-conservative-pundit-charlie-kirk-shot-at-utah-event-now-reported-deceased-same-date-10sep2025/1022916/917 "2025-09-13T14:46:43Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > You don’t see that von Stauffenberg was a reductio ad absurdum? Ok, cool, so you _also_ agree that it was an irrelevant and pointless example. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2025, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ally-and-conservative-pundit-charlie-kirk-shot-at-utah-event-now-reported-deceased-same-date-10sep2025/1022916/918 "2025-09-13T14:48:09Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > For sure, I agree, but what makes it irrational is that neither the Groypers nor the Far Left (the two ideological camps that were presented as possibly motivated for a “rational” assassination) are engaged in _that kind of war_ with Kirk or his followers. > > This is an ideological battle, not open warfare. In that context, sacrificing yourself to take out Kirk is the height of idiocy. Sacrificing a pawn to take out a bishop is rational, even if you’re the pawn. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2025, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ally-and-conservative-pundit-charlie-kirk-shot-at-utah-event-now-reported-deceased-same-date-10sep2025/1022916/919 "2025-09-13T14:51:00Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Sacrificing a pawn to take out a bishop is rational, even if you’re the pawn. Yeah, but I think to @Babale ‘s point, it’s the mentally deranged adherents who elevate this to a _shooting_ war. During the last speaking tour, they asked difficult questions. > [@](#): > > Sitting in front of a backdrop emblazoned with TPUSA’s marketing phrase for that season, “Culture War: Feat. Charlie Kirk,” Kirk was well-prepared to bat down any of the typical, feeble arguments for socialism, Medicare-for-all, identity politics, or climate change. On stage with him was Rob Smith, the personification of a rebuttal to any leftist identity politics argument: black, a veteran, proudly homosexual, and a recent convert from the left. Checkmate, leftists! > > What Kirk and Smith fielded instead was a long line of young, hard-right conservatives who asked difficult questions about TPUSA’s version of conservatism. [https://chroniclesmagazine.org/editorials/the-groyper-rebellion/](https://chroniclesmagazine.org/editorials/the-groyper-rebellion/) ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2025, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ally-and-conservative-pundit-charlie-kirk-shot-at-utah-event-now-reported-deceased-same-date-10sep2025/1022916/920 "2025-09-13T14:51:15Z")
Please, continue to try to support the argument that the evidence that Kirk’s assassin was mentally ill is that he assassinated Kirk. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ally-and-conservative-pundit-charlie-kirk-shot-at-utah-event-now-reported-deceased-same-date-10sep2025/1022916.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ally-and-conservative-pundit-charlie-kirk-shot-at-utah-event-now-reported-deceased-same-date-10sep2025/1022916.md?page=47)