# Trump and the right's immigration stances are pushing the left towards open borders. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 23, 2018, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407 "2018-10-23T23:16:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/181 "2018-10-29T14:37:14Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It’s almost comical that you and others parrot some interaction of “the border is as secure as…” > > The fact is, it’s not secure. Period. And it is equally as comical to hear the notion that a wall couldn’t;t be helpful in parts of the border. The notion that walls don’t work is contradicted by walking around any day with one’s eyes open. And there was a quote by some one, I forget who, that made the point well. Saying walls don’t work is like saying buckets don’t work. Of course they work, which is why we see so many of them everywhere. And don’t forget their lighter cousins, fences, they do a damn good job, too. It’s almost comical to see you continuing to mischaracterize other people’s arguments. I didn’t say “walls don’t work”; I said the proposed Wall will not work. And it won’t, both because ropes and ladders and tunnels exist and because the majority of illegal immigrants don’t enter the country by sneaking over the border. And I note you’ve glossed over your previous characterization of opposition to Republican policies as not wanting a secure border. It’s almost as if you prefer to argue against strawmen rather than actual arguments being made. You say the border is “not secure”. We can quibble over what constitutes “secure”, although again you’ll note that I didn’t say “the border is secure”; I said it was “is as secure as it has ever been if not moreso” which remains a true statement (and oh look - another almost comical mischaracterization). But nothing the Republicans are proposing will make it more secure. So instead of arguing that Democrats don’t want a secure border, perhaps we should ask instead why Republicans are willing to spend a vast amount of money on an ineffective bit of security theater (particularly as one might point out that Republicans cared deeply about deficit spending a mere two years ago). And speaking of Republicans and fences, I’ll just leave this here for general consumption: > [@Ronald Reagan](#): > > Rather than making them, of talking about putting up a fence, why don’t we work out some recognition of our mutual problems, make it possible for them to come here legally with a work permit, and then, while they’re working and earning here, they pay taxes here. And when they want to go back they can go back, and cross. And open the border both ways, by understanding their problems. This is the only safety valve they have right now, with that unemployment, that probably keeps the lid from blowing off…And I think we could have a fine relationship. I guess Saint Ronnie didn’t care about securing the border either. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/182 "2018-10-29T14:42:59Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Which means it is not secure. Obviously. It’s pretty clear you have no definition of secure. It’s like how you might say that you won’t vote for a Democrat until they are “good.” ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/183 "2018-10-29T14:45:55Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The fact is, it’s not secure. Period. And it is equally as comical to hear the notion that a wall couldn’t;t be helpful in parts of the border. The notion that walls don’t work is contradicted by walking around any day with one’s eyes open. And there was a quote by some one, I forget who, that made the point well. Saying walls don’t work is like saying buckets don’t work. Of course they work, which is why we see so many of them everywhere. And don’t forget their lighter cousins, fences, they do a damn good job, too. Buddy, if the thing standing between me and a life of riches and safety for my family was a wall, if what I had to do to flee persecution and death in my home country was get past a wall, I would not give two shits about that wall. History provides a useful illustration: [some 40,000 people escaped eastern Germany over the borders](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_attempts_and_victims_of_the_inner_German_border), despite the borders being carefully watched and soviet troops having orders to fire on anyone attempting to cross. And of course, the vast, vast majority of refugees left via other means, much like today, most illegal immigrants entered the country legally and violated the terms of their visas by not leaving. Saying “this wall will work because walls usually work” ignores the simple fact that most people, upon seeing a wall, are not desperate enough to find ways around it. Foreign refugees? They’re desperate. They will tunnel under or climb over, or find people to smuggle them over the border at crossings. Maybe some will be discouraged, but the reality is that the wall, as described by republicans, makes no fucking sense. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/184 "2018-10-29T14:51:12Z")
> [@bump](#): > > That’s not exactly what I’m talking about though; it’s more the idea that you already have a set of people who are predisposed to be hostile to illegal immigrants because they think that they drive wages down, and take jobs from citizens, or whatever other reasons. And it happens often enough to not be a wholly mythical thing- tradesmen like electricians and carpenters have it tough in a lot of places because of so many unlicensed Mexicans willing to work for cheap, for example. > > Then you get a Democratic politician on TV going on about “undocumented immigrants” and all the other stuff about wanting to make a better life, etc… The people I just mentioned go “WTF? Why is this guy sticking up for people who are coming here without going through the legal process, taking jobs from Americans, and driving wages down?” > > It doesn’t necessarily have to be the result of any right-wing machinations. Well, it does, when there are propaganda radio, TV and Internet groups having the ears of many in America. Incidentally, one should realize how sickening that propaganda is when one just notices (in an emperor has no clothes like bit) that the huge economy, **with very little unemployment** , that we do have right now still includes about 10 million usually working already undocumented with many new legal immigrants and (in an unrelated issue to the undocumented) with Obamacare to boot. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/185 "2018-10-29T15:46:08Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > It’s almost comical to see you continuing to mischaracterize other people’s arguments. I didn’t say “walls don’t work”; I said the proposed Wall will not work. And it won’t, both because ropes and ladders and tunnels exist and because the majority of illegal immigrants don’t enter the country by sneaking over the border. And I note you’ve glossed over your previous characterization of opposition to Republican policies as not wanting a secure border. It’s almost as if you prefer to argue against strawmen rather than actual arguments being made. Well, if walls work _generally_, what is it about this particular wall that leads you to decree it won’t work? If your argument is that ropes, ladders and tunnels will be employed, you do not understand the purpose of the wall. No one expects it to solve the problem by itself, where we build it and—presto—border is secure! (Talk about straw!) It is one part of helping to secure the border. And I don’t think you can argue that it will not be helpful in that regard. At the very least, it’s an additional barrier keeping people out. Now, you could argue that it’s not an effective use of funds, that the money could be more effectively spent in other ways and would do a better job of securing the border. But a wall, built correctly, is an effective barrier. Go for a walk and see for yourself. > [@Gyrate](#): > > And speaking of Republicans and fences, I’ll just leave this here for general consumption: > I guess Saint Ronnie didn’t care about securing the border either. I’ve consistently argued in favor of the U.S. issuing work permits. Canada seems to have a good, workable system where people are issued work permits for eight months at a time. During that time they can come and go as they please. And they pay taxes, don’t have to live in the shadows and don’t artificially suppress wages (as long as the numbers are managed properly). ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/186 "2018-10-29T15:58:06Z")
Note that Trump is only against immigration from countries like those in South America and Africa. He specifically pointed out in the Oval Office that he wanted to encourage more immigration from countries ‘like Norway’. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/187 "2018-10-29T16:05:09Z")
Gee, that doesn’t sound at _all_ racist. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/188 "2018-10-29T16:07:33Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’ve consistently argued in favor of the U.S. issuing work permits. Canada seems to have a good, workable system where people are issued work permits for eight months at a time. During that time they can come and go as they please. And they pay taxes, don’t have to live in the shadows and don’t artificially suppress wages (as long as the numbers are managed properly). The US _already_ issues work permits, in the form of things like H-1B and H-2A visas. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/189 "2018-10-29T16:31:32Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Well, if walls work _generally_, what is it about this particular wall that leads you to decree it won’t work? If your argument is that ropes, ladders and tunnels will be employed, you do not understand the purpose of the wall. No one expects it to solve the problem by itself, where we build it and—presto—border is secure! (Talk about straw!) It is one part of helping to secure the border. \*\*What \*\*wall are we talking about? > **[Trump’s Evolving Words on the Wall (Published 2018)](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/18/us/politics/trump-border-wall-immigration.html)** > > A review of President Trump's statements on Twitter, in campaign speeches and during interviews shows that the president’s views on the border wall have shifted repeatedly. > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON — In an early-morning Twitter post, President Trump insisted on Thursday that he has been unwavering in his stance for building a border wall between Mexico and the United States to thwart illegal immigration. > > He was responding to — and directly contradicting — private statements by John F. Kelly, his chief of staff, who told the Congressional Hispanic Caucus on Wednesday that Mr. Trump had not been “fully informed” when he first promised the wall, and that the president’s position on building it had “evolved” over time. > > “The Wall is the Wall, it has never changed or evolved from the first day I conceived of it,” Mr. Trump wrote on Twitter at 6:15 a.m. Thursday. > > But a review of Mr. Trump’s public statements on Twitter, in campaign speeches and during interviews shows that the president’s views on the border wall have shifted repeatedly since he raised the idea nearly four years ago, on Aug. 5, 2014. > [@magellan01](#): > > But a wall, built correctly, is an effective barrier. Go for a walk and see for yourself. I think you have not taken enough walks or seen enough around. > **[Protesters scale US/Mexico border wall during protest in support of migrant...](https://globalnews.ca/video/4176700/protesters-scale-us-mexico-border-wall-during-protest-in-support-of-migrant-caravan)** > > Watch Protesters scale US/Mexico border wall during protest in support of migrant ‘caravan’ Video Online, on GlobalNews.ca ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/190 "2018-10-30T18:42:01Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > The US _already_ issues work permits, in the form of things like H-1B and H-2A visas. I’m talking about a guest worker program for seasonal work, particularly agricultural. You know, all those jobs that the left keeps telling us Americans don’t want to do. But if I follow your logic, since we already have programs like the ones you mentioned, we don’t need anything else. Because it’s not like we have people having to work illegally, right? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/191 "2018-10-30T18:46:24Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > \*\*What \*\*wall are we talking about? > > [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/18/us/politics/trump-border-wall-immigration.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/18/us/politics/trump-border-wall-immigration.html) > > I think you have not taken enough walks or seen enough around. > > [https://globalnews.ca/video/4176700/protesters-scale-us-mexico-border-wall-during-protest-in-support-of-migrant-caravan](https://globalnews.ca/video/4176700/protesters-scale-us-mexico-border-wall-during-protest-in-support-of-migrant-caravan) Huh? What point are you trying to make? That the concept of the wall has morphed? That walls by themselves may not work as well as one would like? That the design of the wall is critical to its effectiveness? Something else? But let’s be clear, was, like buckets wheels, and inclined planes, work. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/192 "2018-10-30T18:59:26Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Huh? What point are you trying to make? That the concept of the wall has morphed? That walls by themselves may not work as well as one would like? That the design of the wall is critical to its effectiveness? Something else? > > But let’s be clear, was, like buckets wheels, and inclined planes, work. Alas, we have come to the point of Trumpism in which someone claims with a straight face that since no two objects can inhabit the same physical space at the same time, immigrants really do suck. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/193 "2018-10-30T19:10:42Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Huh? What point are you trying to make? That the concept of the wall has morphed? That walls by themselves may not work as well as one would like? That the design of the wall is critical to its effectiveness? Something else? > > But let’s be clear, was, like buckets wheels, and inclined planes, work. The Wall could indeed reduce the number of Mexican & other south of the border immigrants who sneak into the USA. It wont do anything about the Canadians who sneak into the USA (but we dont care about them, do we, since they are white? :rolleyes: ) And it\*\* can’t\*\* do anything about the huge number of migrants who arrive legally but stay after their visa expire. The wall would cost a huge amount but do little. It would be a environmental disaster. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/194 "2018-10-30T23:41:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The Wall could indeed reduce the number of Mexican & other south of the border immigrants who sneak into the USA. It wont do anything about the Canadians who sneak into the USA (but we dont care about them, do we, since they are white? :rolleyes: ) > > And it\*\* can’t\*\* do anything about the huge number of migrants who arrive legally but stay after their visa expire. These are valid points. And pint to things the wall is not expected to prevent. Other measures are need, as well. But they have nothing to do with the degree to which the wall wold be effective on our southern border. > [@DrDeth](#): > > The wall would cost a huge amount but do little. It would be a environmental disaster. Cost is subjective, especially when considering the cost of having the porous border we have now. You do not know that it would “do little”. And the environmental impacts can be mitigated. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/195 "2018-10-30T23:43:33Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Alas, we have come to the point of Trumpism in which someone claims with a straight face that since no two objects can inhabit the same physical space at the same time, immigrants really do suck. Can you translate from Nonsensiclish? Thanks. If not, double thanks! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/196 "2018-10-30T23:57:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Cost is subjective, especially when considering the cost of having the porous border we have now. You do not know that it would “do little”. And the environmental impacts can be mitigated. Yes, that’s true. Migrant farm works bring billion sinto our economy. The cost of the wall should be doubled due to that. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/197 "2018-10-31T00:32:09Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Can you translate from Nonsensiclish? Thanks. > > If not, double thanks! Well, when you go off on some tangent about proof that wheels work therefore SEAL THE BORDERS do you expect anyone to be convinced by that? What’s next? Incandescent bulbs turn electricity into light, therefore SPAAAAACE FOOOORCE! ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/198 "2018-10-31T19:33:45Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Buddy, if the thing standing between me and a life of riches and safety for my family was a wall, if what I had to do to flee persecution and death in my home country was get past a wall, I would not give two shits about that wall. History provides a useful illustration: [some 40,000 people escaped eastern Germany over the borders](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_attempts_and_victims_of_the_inner_German_border), despite the borders being carefully watched and soviet troops having orders to fire on anyone attempting to cross. And of course, the vast, vast majority of refugees left via other means, much like today, most illegal immigrants entered the country legally and violated the terms of their visas by not leaving. I would try to come, too. But that does not mean that I’d feel it is incumbent upon the new country to welcome me, or even let me in. Unless it was a legitimate asylum claim. I’m sure there are some of them in the caravan, but probably a small percentage. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Saying “this wall will work because walls usually work” ignores the simple fact that most people, upon seeing a wall, are not desperate enough to find ways around it. Foreign refugees? They’re desperate. They will tunnel under or climb over, or find people to smuggle them over the border at crossings. Maybe some will be discouraged, but the reality is that the wall, as described by republicans, makes no fucking sense. That’s fair, but all that really means is that the wall, and whatever supporting measures, have to be built with the reality that people will be motivated to breach it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/199 "2018-10-31T19:49:38Z")
Serious question: why don’t you support a moat around the southwest border? No, I’m not kidding. Why not a moat? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/200 "2018-10-31T19:52:00Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Serious question: why don’t you support a moat around the southwest border? > > No, I’m not kidding. Why not a moat? The crocodiles. It always comes down to the crocodiles in these sorts of things. Shame, really… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407.md?page=11)