# Trump and the right's immigration stances are pushing the left towards open borders. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 23, 2018, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407 "2018-10-23T23:16:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/201 "2018-10-31T20:11:55Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Serious question: why don’t you support a moat around the southwest border? > > No, I’m not kidding. Why not a moat? Haven’t heard any plan about a moat, or even talk of it. I’m simply for securing the border. And given that very large numbers of people have a very strong desire to come here, not recognizing our border or our sovereignty, I’m for whatever will work. If a wall is an effective part of the solution, I’m for it. If a moat is proposed, I’d like to hear more about it. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/202 "2018-10-31T20:14:57Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I would try to come, too. But that does not mean that I’d feel it is incumbent upon the new country to welcome me, or even let me in. Unless it was a legitimate asylum claim. I’m sure there are some of them in the caravan, but probably a small percentage. So if you’re willing to acknowledge that some of the people in the caravan have legitimate asylum claims, doesn’t it follow that those claims should get a proper hearing? Preferably before a judge, with counsel available to advise them. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/203 "2018-10-31T21:04:16Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > So if you’re willing to acknowledge that some of the people in the caravan have legitimate asylum claims, doesn’t it follow that those claims should get a proper hearing? Preferably before a judge, with counsel available to advise them. Yes. In Mexico. The first safe country. But I don’t mind adducting those here that we can. Sadly, we are not set up to automatically deal with swarms of people and sort them out. What if sorting them out requires some kids to be separated from parents. Well, we can’t have that, so our lawsuit the window. Question for you. From history, it appears that about 20% of asylum claims are legitimate and the people granted asylum. There is also a huge portion that have no legitimate argument for asylum. Why would we want to take a limited resource like asylum lawyers and have them waste their time on some percent of the people who we know are simply gaming the system? I don’t have an answer for all this, but I’m struck with the gravity of some of the questions I come top with. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/204 "2018-10-31T21:09:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Yes. In Mexico. The first safe country. > . Mexico is safe? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/205 "2018-10-31T21:16:25Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Yes. In Mexico. The first safe country. > > But I don’t mind adducting those here that we can. Sadly, we are not set up to automatically deal with swarms of people and sort them out. What if sorting them out requires some kids to be separated from parents. Well, we can’t have that, so our lawsuit the window. > > Question for you. From history, it appears that about 20% of asylum claims are legitimate and the people granted asylum. There is also a huge portion that have no legitimate argument for asylum. Why would we want to take a limited resource like asylum lawyers and have them waste their time on some percent of the people who we know are simply gaming the system? I don’t have an answer for all this, but I’m struck with the gravity of some of the questions I come top with. We **require** asylum candidates to be physically in the country to apply for asylum. In general, while we may not mind denying people a right to due process in remote lands it is pretty horrible to not allow humans access to due process on our soil. The question is why are you willing to sacrifice our core moral values and toss out core rights like due process and equal protection. Lets be clear, the caravan has to make it to a port of entry to apply, and Trump is talking about shutting down the border to block possible **legal** immigration. [https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum/faq/who-eligible-apply-asylum](https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum/faq/who-eligible-apply-asylum) > [@](#): > > You may only apply for asylum if you are arriving in or already physically present in the United States. To apply for asylum in the United States, you may ask for asylum at a port-of-entry (airport, seaport, or border crossing), or, if you are already in the United States, you may file Form I-589, Application for Asylum and for Withholding of Removal, at the appropriate Service Center. You may apply for asylum regardless of your immigration status, whether you are here legally or illegally. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/206 "2018-10-31T21:20:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Mexico is safe? :dubious: Mexico offered only Chiapas and Oaxaca too. I think that had more to do with agreements with the US to try and stop migrants more than anything else. But yes it does appear that magellan01 may not be up to speed on the Jalisco cartels or the Zapatistas etc… ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/207 "2018-10-31T21:21:45Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Haven’t heard any plan about a moat, or even talk of it. I’m simply for securing the border. And given that very large numbers of people have a very strong desire to come here, not recognizing our border or our sovereignty, I’m for whatever will work. If a wall is an effective part of the solution, I’m for it. If a moat is proposed, I’d like to hear more about it. So if a moat costs the same as a wall, you’d be good with a moat? How about laying down tons of bubble wrap so that when those sneaky Mexicans invade us, we can hear them coming? In the name of border security, of course. If that cost less than a wall, you good with that? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/208 "2018-10-31T21:35:08Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > We **require** asylum candidates to be physically in the country to apply for asylum. In general, while we may not mind denying people a right to due process in remote lands it is pretty horrible to not allow humans access to due process on our soil. > > The question is why are you willing to sacrifice our core moral values and toss out core rights like due process and equal protection. > > Lets be clear, the caravan has to make it to a port of entry to apply, and Trump is talking about shutting down the border to block possible **legal** immigration. > > [https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum/faq/who-eligible-apply-asylum](https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum/faq/who-eligible-apply-asylum) There are two categories from which people can apply for asylum: one is either an asylees or a refugee. As you point out, asylees must apply at the border; refugees can apply at any US embassy. By definition, asylees are those seeking asylum who are already in the U.S. Refugees seeking asylum are those not in the U.S. The latter group applies at embassies. So there is nothing preventing someone seeking asylum in the U.S.—who is not already here—from applying at a U.S. embassy in their home country or a neighboring one. [Asylee](https://www.uscis.gov/tools/glossary/asylee) > [@](#): > > An alien in the United States or at a port of entry who is found to be unable or unwilling to return to his or her country of nationality, or to seek the protection of that country because of persecution or a well-founded fear of persecution. Persecution or the fear thereof must be based on the alien’s race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion. For persons with no nationality, the country of nationality is considered to be the country in which the alien last habitually resided. Asylees are eligible to adjust to lawful permanent resident status after one year of continuous presence in the United States. These immigrants are limited to 10,000 adjustments per fiscal year. [Refugee](https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/refugees) > [@](#): > > Under United States law, a refugee is someone who: > > Is located outside of the United States > Is of special humanitarian concern to the United States > Demonstrates that they were persecuted or fear persecution due to race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or membership in a particular social group > Is not firmly resettled in another country > Is admissible to the United States > A refugee does not include anyone who ordered, incited, assisted, or otherwise participated in the persecution of any person on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/209 "2018-10-31T22:03:54Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > There are two categories from which people can apply for asylum: one is either an asylees or a refugee. As you point out, asylees must apply at the border; refugees can apply at any US embassy. By definition, asylees are those seeking asylum who are already in the U.S. Refugees seeking asylum are those not in the U.S. The latter group applies at embassies. So there is nothing preventing someone seeking asylum in the U.S.—who is not already here—from applying at a U.S. embassy in their home country or a neighboring one. > > [Asylee](https://www.uscis.gov/tools/glossary/asylee) > [Refugee](https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/refugees) The Trump administration intentionally removed the TPS option and the refugee option requires sponsorship and there is no such office in Honduras to apply to. > **[DPP-3582-EX-29.pdf](https://www.nationaltpsalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/DPP-3582-EX-29.pdf)** > > 702.69 KB But you hand waved away my cite, directly showing that to apply for **asylum** you must be in this country and replaced it with no cite showing that there is another option. To quote your “refugee” cite, which doesn’t disprove that following the “asylum” path is legal BTW. > [@](#): > > You must receive a referral to the U.S. Refugee Admissions Program (USRAP) for consideration as a refugee. For more information on the referral criteria, see the USRAP Consultations and Worldwide Processing Priorities page. Which links to: > [@](#): > > Refugees must generally be outside their country of origin, but we can process some individuals in their home countries if authorized by the President. AND > [@](#): > > No refugees may be admitted in the new fiscal year until the Presidential Determination has been signed. Trump dropped this to a historically low 30,000 people for Fiscal Year 2019 **world wide**. They simply cannot apply like you claim, the Asylee lane is the only one open to them and they HAVE TO APPLY AT A POINT OF ENTRY OR AT THE BORDER. Provide a real cite to that, if it is not true as I used Asylum and not Refugee on purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/210 "2018-10-31T22:19:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > There are two categories from which people can apply for asylum: one is either an asylees or a refugee. As you point out, asylees must apply at the border; refugees can apply at any US embassy. By definition, asylees are those seeking asylum who are already in the U.S. Refugees seeking asylum are those not in the U.S. The latter group applies at embassies. So there is nothing preventing someone seeking asylum in the U.S.—who is not already here—from applying at a U.S. embassy in their home country or a neighboring one. > > [Asylee](https://www.uscis.gov/tools/glossary/asylee) > [Refugee](https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/refugees) You just looked that up on Wikipedia/Google, didn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/211 "2018-10-31T22:29:47Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You just looked that up on Wikipedia/Google, didn’t you? What, s=doesn’t everyone know that? 🙂 Actually, i looked it up two or three days ago. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/212 "2018-10-31T22:41:56Z")
Looking at the first page isn’t enough on google on this subject. The “refugee” lane is just not open to these individuals, so they are following the other **legal** path they have. The one legal and reasonable path they have for US entry involves getting to the US first. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/213 "2018-10-31T22:50:48Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Looking at the first page isn’t enough on google on this subject. The “refugee” lane is just not open to these individuals, so they are following the other **legal** path they have. > > The one legal and reasonable path they have for US entry involves getting to the US first. Why? Why can’t they go to the U.S. embassy in their own country, or a neighboring one? Mexico, for instance? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/214 "2018-10-31T23:05:13Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Why? Why can’t they go to the U.S. embassy in their own country, or a neighboring one? Mexico, for instance? Because our laws for declaring asylum don’t allow for it. [https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum/faq/who-eligible-apply-asylum](https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum/faq/who-eligible-apply-asylum) > [@](#): > > You may **only** apply for asylum **if you are arriving in or already physically present in the United States**. To apply for asylum in the United States, you may ask for asylum at a port-of-entry (airport, seaport, or border crossing), or, if you are already in the United States, you may file Form I-589, Application for Asylum and for Withholding of Removal, at the appropriate Service Center. You may apply for asylum regardless of your immigration status, whether you are here legally or illegally. > **[8 U.S. Code § 1158 - Asylum](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1158)** > [@](#): > > (a) Authority to apply for asylum > (1) In general > [INDENT]Any alien who is **physically present** in the United States **or who arrives in the United States** (whether or not at a designated port of arrival and including an alien who is brought to the United States after having been interdicted in international or United States waters), irrespective of such alien’s status, may apply for asylum in accordance with this section or, where applicable, section 1225(b) of this title[/INDENT] We do have a program that would have allowed them to do it remotely, but Trump doesn’t like brown people from “shithole countries” so that was restricted by him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407.md?page=10)