# Trump and the right's immigration stances are pushing the left towards open borders. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 23, 2018, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407 "2018-10-23T23:16:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/61 "2018-10-24T17:07:50Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > There are plenty of republicans who are at fault on immigration. Truth is, that for decades there has been an unholy alliance between the two parties. Each had constituents they wanted to keep happening. 9/11 almost put an end to it, but the swampy stance ran to deep. But it would be a mistake to have the discussion revolve around purity, meaning, one party can be much more in favor of securing the border while having individuals in the party that are weak on the issue. It would be laughable to try to create a narrative that the Dems are as eager to support the border as the Reps. Just look at the ;last deal on DACA the Dems turned down. And that was with Trump giving them more DACA slots than anyone asked for! No, it’s clear at every turn that the Dems do not want to secure the border. Who cares what the minority party wants? The majority party hasn’t done anything on this. Why blame the minority for the inaction of the majority? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/62 "2018-10-24T17:13:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Who cares what the minority party wants? The majority party hasn’t done anything on this. Why blame the minority for the inaction of the majority? Because the Republicans are always the victims? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/63 "2018-10-24T17:15:07Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > There are plenty of republicans who are at fault on immigration. Truth is, that for decades there has been an unholy alliance between the two parties. Each had constituents they wanted to keep happening. 9/11 almost put an end to it, but the swampy stance ran to deep. But it would be a mistake to have the discussion revolve around purity, meaning, one party can be much more in favor of securing the border while having individuals in the party that are weak on the issue. It would be laughable to try to create a narrative that the Dems are as eager to support the border as the Reps. Just look at the ;last deal on DACA the Dems turned down. And that was with Trump giving them more DACA slots than anyone asked for! No, it’s clear at every turn that the Dems do not want to secure the border. Does this actually make any sense to you? It’s such twisted logic I can’t even follow what you are getting at. The Pubs control both houses. Are you saying that, despite this, they can’t muster enough votes to do anything? And, conversely, that because of similar ‘swampy stance’ the Dems can’t either? But that this indicates that the Dems are the ones at fault?? I’m trying hard to translate this into English, but I can’t wrap my head around it to be honest. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/64 "2018-10-24T18:20:58Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Sneaking over the border or outstaying your visa is illegal. Enforcing that is reasonable and the real Barack Obama did so. Except that, if they have lived here for decades, paid taxes, and stayed out of trouble, I dont see any reason why they cannot become legal residents and citizens. Let us say- if you entered the USA legally: ten years here, paying taxes, no felony convictions. If you entered the USA illegally: 15 years, texes, and no felony arrests. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/65 "2018-10-24T18:30:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > When I think of “open borders” I think of the borders in the EU (say, between Belgium and France), or the borders between states in the US. So no stopping, no controls, etc., when crossing them. > > With an EU-like trade agreement, I think establishing such borders between, say, the US and Canada would probably be a wonderful thing for both countries. I’m skeptical about such with Mexico (but open to any arguments). Is anyone advocating for such a border between the US and Mexico? And if so, do you advocate this along with some sort of trade agreement like the EU, or some other agreement, or is that not required? You need some sort of control on drug smuggling. But as for Mexico, what we should have is a letter from a Ag company that sez they will hire and be responsible for this worker. Like the old bracero system. A very easy to get work visa, that is temp. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/66 "2018-10-24T18:37:57Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Excellent post. At every turn, Dems refuse to secure the border. They claim that they want a secure border, but never take action d=to do so. What is a “secure border”? Why do you say we dont have one now? Are you talking about the useless and expensive wall? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/67 "2018-10-24T18:52:26Z")
I read the other day their are 550,000 homeless right now in the US. Where are we going to put all these new arrivals/ how will we feed them? Who will pay for their healthcare, education, and housing? Sorry, we cannot take anymore. We cant take care of our own. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/68 "2018-10-24T18:55:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Blaming this on the minority party is nuts. Not at all. The Republicans are telling lies. But as you can see from posts in this thread, there are people who will believe lies and keep voting for Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/69 "2018-10-24T18:59:19Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Who will pay for their healthcare, education, and housing? If only there was some way we could get more people into this country who were seeking jobs. We could charge those people taxes. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/70 "2018-10-24T19:02:18Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I read the other day their are 550,000 homeless right now in the US. Where are we going to put all these new arrivals/ how will we feed them? Who will pay for their healthcare, education, and housing? The vast majority won’t need any assistance, and will work for money that they will then use to pay for the necessities of themselves and their families. > [@](#): > > Sorry, we cannot take anymore. We cant take care of our own. Thankfully, having a bunch of willing and capable workers will make it easier to “take care of our own” who are unable to take care of themselves. Immigrants generally improve the economy in the long term, leading to greater prosperity for all, and giving us greater capacity to take care of the least capable among us. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/71 "2018-10-24T19:21:04Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If only there was some way we could get more people into this country who were seeking jobs. We could charge those people taxes. I heard that things are so good in the economy today because of Trump that there are actually MORE jobs than we have people to fill them. Perhaps we can figure out a way to get more people to these excess jobs? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/72 "2018-10-24T19:48:33Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I read the other day their are 550,000 homeless right now in the US. Where are we going to put all these new arrivals/ how will we feed them? Who will pay for their healthcare, education, and housing? > > Sorry, we cannot take anymore. We cant take care of our own. Did you just quote the New Founding Fathers from “The First Purge”? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/73 "2018-10-24T19:51:41Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If only there was some way we could get more people into this country who were seeking jobs. We could charge those people taxes. Good idea. We should create some laws, to determine who are the ones we want and who are the ones we don’t want. Those that obey the laws should go to the front of the line; those who break the law should be kicked out of the country ASAP. That’s just for the ones seeking jobs (of course we need to prioritize the ones with education and skills that we want). Those who are seeking asylum - that’s a harder question. Obviously we can’t take all of them. Of course the same caveat should apply to them - if they try to sneak into the country, kick them out. And it might not work out if we just take their word for it when they say they will show up for their hearings, since 40% of them might not show up. But yes, I agree - we need that kind of system, and we need to enforce it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/74 "2018-10-24T19:59:23Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I read the other day their are 550,000 homeless right now in the US. Where are we going to put all these new arrivals/ how will we feed them? Who will pay for their healthcare, education, and housing? > > Sorry, we cannot take anymore. We cant take care of our own. Excellent idea. What has the current administration proposed to help our native homeless? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/75 "2018-10-24T20:01:04Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > But yes, I agree - we need that kind of system, and we need to enforce it. I seem to see stories of ICE collecting people up and deporting them on a daily basis. Isn’t that “enforcement”? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/76 "2018-10-24T21:31:22Z")
If we _really_ wanted to reduce illegal immigration, we’d crack down on businesses that hire them. They wouldn’t keep coming here if there weren’t work. Similarly, if we _really_ wanted to yank the rug out from the Mexican drug cartels and their efforts to smuggle drugs here, we’d legalize the stuff. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/77 "2018-10-24T22:35:40Z")
If we really wanted to reduce illegal immigration we would fix the immigration rules. It is impossible for these people to come via legal means due to overtly discriminatory categories, including preferences for family reunification, and job-related visas. But under the rules no country gets more than 7 percent of the total number of visas available in any given year, which in the current context works out to about 27,000 annually. This results in up to a 30 year wait for countries like Mexico. Oddly enough, these limits weren’t put in place to keep the US “white” but primarily as anti-catholic restrictions. Your great-grandparents probably did not come here legally, learn English, and assimilated quickly either. The immigration problem is caused by anti-immigration policies breaking valid, useful immigration laws and the anti-immigration feedback loop keeps them that way. 66% of the population of Liechtenstein could migrate in one year, yet Mexico is capped despite being closer. There is no single line to which everyone has equal access. [https://www.uscis.gov/tools/glossary/country-limit](https://www.uscis.gov/tools/glossary/country-limit) People pretending that there is a large reason this is still a problem. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2018, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/78 "2018-10-25T00:17:45Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > It surprises me that Republicans (of the pre-Trump variety, at least) are so hostile to the idea. [snip] Until the height of racism in the Western world caused people to fear “the wrong kind” of immigrants moving in next door and working alongside them. And…you answered your own question. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2018, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/79 "2018-10-25T03:06:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What is a “secure border”? Why do you say we dont have one now? Are you talking about the useless and expensive wall? A secure border is one that keeps out those who wold like to come here illegally. If it includes a wall, fine. If not, fine. The goal is not o have a wall, it’s merely one means to an end: a secure border. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2018, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/80 "2018-10-25T03:44:45Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > If we _really_ wanted to reduce illegal immigration, we’d crack down on businesses that hire them. They wouldn’t keep coming here if there weren’t work. They do, except smart businesses have caught on and now treat their Illegals as any other employee, and get a SSN from them. So when they are raided they have plausible deniability. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407.md?page=5)