# Trump and the Russians **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 21, 2016, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-russians/772653 "2016-11-21T16:17:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-russians/772653/61 "2016-11-25T04:45:56Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Trying to make this out as if Russia simply invaded a sovereign nation is pretty dishonest. Russia invaded a sovereign nation. That’s exactly what happened. Saying so is not dishonest at all. ---
**Author:** ![ataraxy22](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ataraxy22/32/307_2.png) [@ataraxy22](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ataraxy22)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-russians/772653/62 "2016-11-25T06:54:03Z")
The Crimea had already basically declared independence from Ukraine before it joined Russia. Historically, it always was part of Russia and most people there wanted reunification (witness the lack of any anti-Russia uprising there). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-russians/772653/63 "2016-11-25T07:08:49Z")
> [@ataraxy22](#): > > The Crimea had already basically declared independence from Ukraine before it joined Russia. Historically, it always was part of Russia and most people there wanted reunification (witness the lack of any anti-Russia uprising there). I can’t help but notice the Crimea had been part of Ukraine for over twenty years without a problem. But right after Russian troops invaded, the Crimeans supposedly decided they wanted to be under Russian control. Funny coincidence. I suspect those Russian troops in the Crimea may also account for the lack of any anti-Russian uprising. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-russians/772653/64 "2016-11-25T09:59:14Z")
> [@ataraxy22](#): > > The Crimea had already basically declared independence from Ukraine before it joined Russia. Historically, it always was part of Russia and most people there wanted reunification (witness the lack of any anti-Russia uprising there). Just like historically the Sudetenland was a part of Germany. Germany was simply safeguarding its own legitimate interests from aggressive Czechoslovakian and Polish expansionism. Incidentally I know a few Ukrainians who were in the region at the time. Any “anti-Russian” proclivities in the populace were (and continue to be) “discouraged” by the presence of armed occupation forces. ---
**Author:** ![Jane\_Smythe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f04885/32.png) [@Jane\_Smythe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jane_Smythe)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-russians/772653/65 "2016-11-25T10:11:20Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > I think that “two years ago, they were our mortal enemy” is also too simplistic (and inaccurate). The U.S. has been at odds with Putin’s government on a number of issues over the past few years (including the Ukraine, and Russia’s computer hacking), but “mortal enemy” isn’t even close, IMO. > > Would it be better if the U.S. and Russia were on a more positive footing? Certainly, if for no other reason than they’re still the two biggest nuclear powers, and two of the biggest military powers, in the world (not sure where China would be ranked), and lower tensions between the two countries would be a good thing for everyone. > > However, if improved relations with Russia amount to “go ahead and keep doing what you guys are doing, we’re totally cool with you guys taking over territory and apparently trying to influence our elections and hack our government’s computer systems”, then, no, it’s probably not a good thing, for the U.S. Also, Russia is in cahoots with Assad in bombing the hell out of Aleppo, in destroying the city and destroying Syria. All for the sake of keeping Assad in power. We cannot look the other way on that issue. In case you people don’t realize it, Assad was a brutal dictator. Just Putin’s type of guy. Which is why Putin likes Trump–he knows Trump can be manipulated and sees similar characteristics in Trump as we see in all dictators. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-russians/772653/66 "2016-11-26T16:01:36Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Russia invaded a sovereign nation. That’s exactly what happened. Saying so is not dishonest at all. Um, no, they intervened in a civil war, on behalf of one side. Do you the think that America ‘invaded’ Vietnam in the early 1960s, or that we ‘invaded’ Afghanistan in 2001? For the record, over three quarters of the people killed fighting on the DNR / LNR side are Ukrainian citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-russians/772653/67 "2016-11-26T19:16:40Z")
By every definition the US invaded Afghanistan in 2001. But even then, the US did not violate the UN Charter by seizing Ukrainian territory. ---
**Author:** ![ganthet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de0a6/32.png) [@ganthet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ganthet)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-russians/772653/68 "2016-11-26T22:47:57Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Um, no, they intervened in a civil war, on behalf of one side. Do you the think that America ‘invaded’ Vietnam in the early 1960s, or that we ‘invaded’ Afghanistan in 2001? > > For the record, over three quarters of the people killed fighting on the DNR / LNR side are Ukrainian citizens. There was no civil war at the time that Russia invaded Ukraine in the Crimea. Not every toppled government means an instant civil war. And since Russia supplied arms, supplies, and other support (including leaders and military advisors), they can’t start a fire and act the hero by (especially covertly) claim to be helping to try and put it out. As for the nationalities of the dead, since non-Russian journalists do not have free and unfettered access to the Donbass (or Crimea for that matter), nothing can be verified. Except for the Russian military POWs that Ukraine has captured in around the Donbass area and recently exchanged with Russia. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-russians/772653.md?page=3)