# Trump associates may have coordinated with Russians, according to US officials **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 23, 2017, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799 "2017-03-23T00:28:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 155
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/3084 "2017-12-01T17:28:05Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > LOL, please let me know when (if ever) you intend to substantively refute anything I’ve ever said, instead of just taking potshots. 😉 First say something substantive, then you can request a substantive refutation. I don’t see any need to “substantively refute” speculation, beyond simply noting that it’s speculation. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/3085 "2017-12-01T17:29:14Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’ve not seen that. What I’ve seen is, e.g. [As part of a plea deal, Flynn has admitted that a senior member of the Trump transition team directed him to make contact with Russian officials in December 2016.](http://www.sfgate.com/news/politics/article/The-Latest-Ex-Trump-adviser-Flynn-arrives-for-12398079.php)No doubt you reckon that. You reckon a lot of things, and have been doing so throughout this thread. > > What I’m discussing is the extent to which there is anything in this latest plea beyond adding to an already massive pile of speculation. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t think that document is necessarily comprehensive as to what Flynn will attest to. It’s about what he’s pleading guilty to, and he could well implicate Trump in all sorts of ways which are not included in that document. > > That said, however, the facts stipulated in that document are about transition activities and possible Logan Act violations, as I’ve suggested above. Anything more is speculative. I love the smell of desperation in the morning. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/3086 "2017-12-01T17:33:04Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > This is a bit vague and potentially misleading, as indicated by the post following yours. > > What I’ve seen reported - and this would make sense, if you think about it - is that Flynn is saying that (at least one of) the contacts with Russia that he’s being prosecuted for lying about were directed by senior members of the Trump team (most likely Trump himself, I would assume). That’s Logan Act stuff, not collusion stuff. It may be wise not to make up your mind so fast. Flynn was on the hook for some serious stuff, and is unlikely Mueller would let that go for help with a nebulous Logan Act violation. But, even if you believe it’s only related to that December contact, that begs the question of what Trump offered Putin. There can be separate December collusion in addition or instead of campaign collusion. Nor that collusion matters. We’ve been over it a hundred times, but collusion is a description, not a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/3087 "2017-12-01T17:45:40Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > It may be wise not to make up your mind so fast. Flynn was on the hook for some serious stuff, and is unlikely Mueller would let that go for help with a nebulous Logan Act violation. I’ve discussed this earlier (or possibly in the Pit thread). This is not necessarily correct. Plea deals are based on what the prosecutors (and defense) think can be proved in court, not based on people might be speculating about on message boards and the like. In addition, lying to the FBI is probably more serious than much of whatever else Flynn was likely to be charged with. As noted, the Logan Act itself is a very shaky charge. And FARA issues are pretty shaky too. They too are very rarely prosecuted, of ambiguous nature, and widely honored in the breach. (Plots to turn over Gulen sound more serious, but I’m guessing actual evidence on that is pretty thin.) > [@](#): > > But, even if you believe it’s only related to that December contact, that begs the question of what Trump offered Putin. There can be separate December collusion in addition or instead of campaign collusion. I agree. However, IMO it’s unlikely that Trump would have offered anything specific. Because all he would have to do is direct Flynn to say something like “_we know that the Obama administration has taken a hard line but when Trump takes office he is going to turn over a new leaf in our relationship, and it would be a good idea to hold off on taking concrete steps which could affect the US-Russia relationship until Trump takes office next week/month_”. Besides for Trump not having to do any more than the above (and it being much easier than coming up with a specific deal at that point in time), I should also note that Flynn’s conversations with the Russians were recorded and have been known to investigators for a long time, and were reported on in the media. If Flynn offered a quid pro quo in those conversations, it’s extremely unlikely that this particular detail would have not leaked out by now. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/3088 "2017-12-01T18:06:59Z")
Also means all of this was known before they said Flynn was fired for “lying”. Pence and Jared and Sessions are all fucked. Trump will probably snake out punishment somehow but not b/c he is innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/3089 "2017-12-01T18:13:22Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Plea deals are based on what the prosecutors (and defense) think can be proved in court, not based on people might be speculating about on message boards and the like. > > In addition, lying to the FBI is probably more serious than much of whatever else Flynn was likely to be charged with. So, speculation is only ok if you do it? Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/3090 "2017-12-01T18:15:26Z")
Speculation is OK if anyone does it, as long as you recognize that it’s speculation and don’t delude yourself into thinking it’s anything more than that. It’s that last part which many people in this thread are having such a hard time with. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/3091 "2017-12-01T18:20:50Z")
… because we have been proven wrong so many times. It’s why this thread continues, all speculation, no news! ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/3092 "2017-12-01T18:35:42Z")
Now Bloomberg is reporting that Kushner told Flynn to contact Russia. [https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/view/articles/2017-12-01/kushner-is-said-to-have-ordered-flynn-to-contact-russia](https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/view/articles/2017-12-01/kushner-is-said-to-have-ordered-flynn-to-contact-russia) ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/3093 "2017-12-01T18:49:03Z")
From JohnT’s cite: > [@](#): > > ABC News reported Friday that Flynn is prepared to tell Mueller’s team that Trump had instructed him to make contact with Russia during the campaign itself. If those contacts involved the emails the U.S. intelligence community charges Russia stole from leading Democrats, then Mueller will have uncovered evidence of actual collusion between the president and a foreign adversary during the election. Impeachment could then be in the cards. > > But it’s also possible that the Justice Department became interested in Flynn’s initial conversation with Kislyak on other, less explosive grounds. One leading theory pushed Friday by Democrats involves a violation of a 1799 statute known as the Logan Act. A relic of the John Adams administration, this discredited law makes it illegal for a private U.S. citizen to undermine the foreign policy of a sitting president in contact with a foreign power. No American has ever been successfully prosecuted under that law. Some conservatives urged the George W. Bush administration to prosecute former House speaker Nancy Pelosi under the Logan Act in 2007 when she visited the Syrian dictator, Bashar al-Assad, when the White House was trying to isolate him. Nothing ever came of that. > > A Logan Act investigation would explain the bureau’s interest in Flynn’s conversations about the U.N. Security Council resolution on Israel. > > […] > > If that’s all there is, then the whispers of collusion will look foolish. Nonetheless, it may be enough to take out not only Flynn, but also the man who married the president’s daughter. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/3094 "2017-12-01T18:49:18Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Speculation is OK if anyone does it, as long as you recognize that it’s speculation and don’t delude yourself into thinking it’s anything more than that. That goes hand in hand not to make up your mind too soon. You’re speculating that the most serious thing they had on Flynn, a guy who was being paid by a foreign country to kidnap someone, is lying to the FBI. I dunno, but it doesn’t seem like a winning bet. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/3095 "2017-12-01T18:53:53Z")
And also seems to be betting that they’re just flipping Flynn to get people on Logan Act charges. As if Mueller would give Flynn this kind of sweetheart deal for anything other than major damaging testimony/evidence about people above him. Which is pretty much just Pence and Trump. Maybe you can put Kush and Sessions in that mix also but they were more lateral to Flynn. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/3096 "2017-12-01T19:03:00Z")
Yeah, for the record, if anyone wants to construct a bet that this whole issue ends with only a Logan Act conviction, I’m very willing to take that action. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/3097 "2017-12-01T19:25:57Z")
[Judge Nap on FoxNews:](http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/12/01/michael-flynn-guilty-plea-judge-napolitano-monumental-reduction-charges-doesnt-come-free) > [@](#): > > ‘Monumental’ Reduction of Charges Doesn’t Come for Free ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/3098 "2017-12-01T19:38:51Z")
Now is when things start to get really dangerous. Now is when Trump starts to spin out in earnest. A status hearing is set for Flynn’s sentencing in February. Scary what Trump might do between now and then in his efforts to thwart the investigation. I reckon. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/3099 "2017-12-01T19:46:05Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Now is when things start to get really dangerous. Now is when Trump starts to spin out in earnest. A status hearing is set for Flynn’s sentencing in February. Scary what Trump might do between now and then in his efforts to thwart the investigation. I reckon. And sounds like that’s just a placeholder date and it can be pushed back as needed as things move along. They don’t have to sentence Flynn anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/3100 "2017-12-01T19:48:25Z")
Flynn pleads guilty. Agrees to cooperate with investigation. Wonder where this will go? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/3101 "2017-12-01T19:50:46Z")
> [@GrandWino](#): > > And sounds like that’s just a placeholder date and it can be pushed back as needed as things move along. They don’t have to sentence Flynn anytime soon. It is. Status hearings are regularly set for exactly the reason their name implies: “How are we doing? Are we ready to go on to sentencing yet?” There may be many, many more. On the bright side, I think Mueller appreciates better than anyone on the planet that in this matter, time is of the essence. I also think Mueller already has/had enough on Trump to proceed, but Flynn is the shortcut. By getting Flynn to flip, Mueller can circumvent a whole lot of other legal process that would draw the investigation out much longer. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/3102 "2017-12-01T19:58:09Z")
Could Trump pardon Flynn now to keep him quiet? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/3103 "2017-12-01T20:07:35Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Could Trump pardon Flynn now to keep him quiet? Just opinions, but the pardon option was discussed by **jayjay** in Post #3056 and by me in Post #3073. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799.md?page=154) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799.md?page=156)