# Trump associates may have coordinated with Russians, according to US officials **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 23, 2017, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799 "2017-03-23T00:28:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 245
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/4885 "2018-08-10T04:47:37Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Back when the Nunes memo was making rounds, I had noted that the timing seemed rather stupid. They really want to wait until the midterms before dumping on the FBI. > > Those who are smarter than Nunes have now headed basic logic and are now striking: > > [http://thehill.com/homenews/house/401193-gop-chairman-set-to-issue-steele-dossier-subpoenas](http://thehill.com/homenews/house/401193-gop-chairman-set-to-issue-steele-dossier-subpoenas) > [http://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/401185-the-handwritten-notes-exposing-what-fusion-gps-told-doj-about-trump](http://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/401185-the-handwritten-notes-exposing-what-fusion-gps-told-doj-about-trump) > [http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/401116-what-would-the-intelligence-communitys-insurance-policy-against-trump](http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/401116-what-would-the-intelligence-communitys-insurance-policy-against-trump) > > The general idea is to point out that Bruce Ohr was acting as an intermediary between Steele & Simpson and the FBI, despite not being on the case. > > Obviously, they are using a lot of scary words to make this sound like nefarious behavior, where Steele and Simpson would probably categorize it as, “We were trying to report our findings about possible crimes to the FBI and we knew someone who was friendly enough to help us do so.” > > Do we know when the DNC stopped paying Simpson (if ever)? I clicked on those links and one of the pages ad my “back” button active, so I hit it and was taken to a page that was an “Advertorial” about Ben Carson shilling a brain booster supplement. When did The Hill turn into an Alex Jones-esque supplement shill farm? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/4886 "2018-08-10T04:58:06Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Ben Carson shilling a brain booster supplement. First of all, I did not originally read that word as “shilling”. Second of all, who the hell is being duped by Ben Carson, of all people, selling “brain boosters”? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/4887 "2018-08-10T05:57:17Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > First of all, I did not originally read that word as “shilling”. 😃 > [@jayjay](#): > > Second of all, who the hell is being duped by Ben Carson, of all people, selling “brain boosters”? Well that’s why it seemed so Alex-Jones-y to me for The Hill to be running paid “advertorials” like this one: I thought they tried to be a respectable publication, not an excuse to hawk wares to gullibles. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/4888 "2018-08-10T14:39:06Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > First of all, I did not originally read that word as “shilling”. > > Second of all, who the hell is being duped by Ben Carson, of all people, selling “brain boosters”? Actually, that is one of the very few things that he _would_ actually be qualified for. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > :DWell that’s why it seemed so Alex-Jones-y to me for The Hill to be running paid “advertorials” like this one: I thought they tried to be a respectable publication, not an excuse to hawk wares to gullibles. I’ve seen those ads, they just pick a random celebrity and attach a testimonial. I’d report the ad, it may have just snuck under their radar, or at least, you let them know that such advertising is not appreciated if it were intentional. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/4889 "2018-08-10T20:21:02Z")
> **[Medvedev: U.S. sanctions against Russian banks would be 'declaration of...](https://www.politico.com/story/2018/08/10/russia-santions-medvedev-ecnomic-war-771294)** > > Medvedev's comments do mark an escalation in rhetoric from the Kremlin, as Russia contends with the economic impact it has already felt since the new sanctions were announced on Wednesday. So now Trump sanctions Russia for Skripal and now the Putin-Trump “bro-mance” may be off. I wonder if this is where the Russians meddle on behalf of Democrats in ways that are obvious, giving Republicans a chance to cry foul and invalidate the election. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/4890 "2018-08-10T20:37:02Z")
They will anyway. Probably the same three to five million illegal voters, unless they lose by ten, then its twenty. Its their ass-in-the-hole card. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/4891 "2018-08-10T20:53:57Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > [https://www.politico.com/story/2018/08/10/russia-santions-medvedev-ecnomic-war-771294](https://www.politico.com/story/2018/08/10/russia-santions-medvedev-ecnomic-war-771294) > > So now Trump sanctions Russia for Skripal and now the Putin-Trump “bro-mance” may be off. I wonder if this is where the Russians meddle on behalf of Democrats in ways that are obvious, giving Republicans a chance to cry foul and invalidate the election. If we want to assume that Trump is completely running at Russia’s command, then one could suppose that they’re trying to play up the sanctions like they’re a big deal (when they’re actually not), before Congress can pass DETER, in the hopes that it will make them decide that it’s redundant, and they’ll forget it and move on to other things. It is noteworthy that Trump’s sanctions are, purportedly to punish Russia for poisoning that one dude in the UK. Given that Trump hasn’t seemed to give a rat’s ass about that, and seemed annoyed by those who did bring it up, it seems strange to hit them a few months, using that as the basis, after everyone else had moved on. I also note that the new sanctions against Turkey are driving Erdogan to talk more with Putin. Ostensibly, we’re sanctioning Turkey because they arrested someone that we don’t think they should have. But, if I recall correctly, Turkey arrested one of Trump’s hotel managers when he joined the office, and he didn’t seem to be bothered at all, not has he seemed to care much about Turkey at all until this moment - nor really explained why this new offense is the one to push his buttons. Given that the US has basically left the Middle East for Russia to take over, this would be the point in time for Russia to start solidifying its hold over everyone there. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/4892 "2018-08-10T20:56:02Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > [https://www.politico.com/story/2018/08/10/russia-santions-medvedev-ecnomic-war-771294](https://www.politico.com/story/2018/08/10/russia-santions-medvedev-ecnomic-war-771294) > > So now Trump sanctions Russia for Skripal and now the Putin-Trump “bro-mance” may be off. I wonder if this is where the Russians meddle on behalf of Democrats in ways that are obvious, giving Republicans a chance to cry foul and invalidate the election. I heard something about this today. Just so were clear here, Trump didn’t impose the sanctions. There’s a law from the early 1990’s which required the State Department to make a declaration regarding the chemical attack within something like 60 days. They declared it to be an attack (although they blew past the deadline), and that automatically triggered sanctions. Russia has to take remedial actions or else additional sanctions are issued. Notably, this is being done outside of Trump’s control. And he is silent on all of it. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/4893 "2018-08-10T21:06:06Z")
More precisely, [here](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/22/5604#a_1) is the law that has taken effect. > [@The Law](#): > > Whenever persuasive information becomes available to the executive branch indicating the substantial possibility that, on or after October 28, 1991, the government of a foreign country has made substantial preparation to use or has used chemical or biological weapons, the President **shall** , within 60 days after the receipt of such information by the executive branch, determine whether that government, on or after October 28, 1991, has used chemical or biological weapons in violation of international law or has used lethal chemical or biological weapons against its own nationals. Section 5605 of this title applies if the President determines that that government has so used chemical or biological weapons. > [@22 USC 5605](#): > > …If, at any time, the President makes a determination pursuant to section 5604(a)(1) of this title with respect to the government of a foreign country, the President **shall** forthwith impose the following sanctions:… Note the use of the word “shall” (my emphasis) ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/4894 "2018-08-11T15:02:25Z")
> [@Defensive\_Indifference](#): > > Here’s a lengthy article in _New York_ magazine that lays out much of the information supporting the case that Trump is, effectively, a Russian asset. The article doesn’t present any new information, and it’s not likely to shift the position of anyone in this thread. But it does lay out the case cleanly and pretty comprehensively. The main argument is that many in the media continue to treat the idea that Trump is a Putin patsy as outlandish, when it is, in fact, the most likely explanation for everything we can see. The article does go a little further than most in suggesting that Trump was drawn into the orbit of Russian intelligence as far back as **1987**. I think the case for that is one of the weaker pieces of the article, but given everything that’s happened the past few years, I would not be surprised at all if it turns out to be true. > > [What If Trump Has Been a Russian Asset Since 1987?](http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/amp/2018/07/trump-putin-russia-collusion.html?__twitter_impression=true) A new book due out on 8/14 also alleges that Trump was “likely” compromised in 1987. The book, by controversial writer Craig Unger, digs into Trump’s real estate deals with Russians going back to the 70s. It quotes a guy who was a senior KGB official in 1987 as saying that it was standard practice for the KGB to try to acquire _kompromat_ on visiting Western businessmen, most often through honey traps. To be clear, the KGB guy offers no evidence that Trump was compromised during his 1987 visit. He only says it was very likely. Craig Unger is best known for _House of Bush, House of Sayd_, which I didn’t read, but I gather was criticized for being gossipy and indulging in conspiracy theories. From the article, this new book also seems to rely on a fair amount of hearsay and inference. But, add it to the growing number of allegations that Trump has been up to his eyeballs in Russians for three or more decades. > **[Trump was compromised by Russians in 1987, new book claims](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6041093/Trump-compromised-Russians-1987-used-Kremlin-DECADES-new-book-claims.html)** > > Author Craig Unger's new book, obtained by DailyMail.com, claims Trump would have been targeted by honey traps when he was invited to Moscow, and used by the Kremlin ever since. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/4895 "2018-08-16T23:40:19Z")
> [@Defensive\_Indifference](#): > > A new book due out on 8/14 also alleges that Trump was “likely” compromised in 1987. The book, by controversial writer Craig Unger, digs into Trump’s real estate deals with Russians going back to the 70s. It quotes a guy who was a senior KGB official in 1987 as saying that it was standard practice for the KGB to try to acquire _kompromat_ on visiting Western businessmen, most often through honey traps. To be clear, the KGB guy offers no evidence that Trump was compromised during his 1987 visit. He only says it was very likely. > > Craig Unger is best known for _House of Bush, House of Sayd_, which I didn’t read, but I gather was criticized for being gossipy and indulging in conspiracy theories. From the article, this new book also seems to rely on a fair amount of hearsay and inference. But, add it to the growing number of allegations that Trump has been up to his eyeballs in Russians for three or more decades. > > [Trump was compromised by Russians in 1987 and used by the Kremlin | Daily Mail Online](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6041093/Trump-compromised-Russians-1987-used-Kremlin-DECADES-new-book-claims.html) I’m no fan of Trump, but… Rumor mongers and conspiracy theorists are bad, but what can you say for a rumor mongering conspiracy theorist who is late to the party? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/4896 "2018-08-17T19:33:54Z")
Looks like (I assume) someone has made credible threats against Papadopoulos and his wife: > **[Papadopoulos’s wife wants him to scrap plea deal with Mueller: report](https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/402260-papadopouloss-wife-wants-him-to-scrap-the-plea-deal-with-mueller/)** > > Simona Mangiante, the wife of former Trump campaign aide George Papadopoulos, says her husband should end his plea agreement with special counsel Robert Mueller’s office and refuse to coopera… I assume that they already have his grand jury testimony in the bag and that he, effectively, can’t change it now but I’m not sure how that actually plays out in a court if he changes his testimony on the stand and they have to compare his statements to the previous ones. Are juries amenable to the idea that people are being threatened by, for example, Russian agents? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2018, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/4897 "2018-08-19T07:35:09Z")
Nope, looks like she’d believed that Papadop had done something wonderful and was going to get a medal from Mueller. Instead, Mueller’s recommendation letter for sentencing seems to encourage the maximum possible sentence 6 months) based on Papadopoulos having been completely useless and only even answering honestly once forced to by physical evidence that contradicted his testimony. So, she must have gotten an early notice about what was coming up and was just angry. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2018, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/4898 "2018-08-19T13:14:30Z")
Papadopoulos lying to the FBI to help Misfud escape the FBI’s jurisdiction is yet another thing that satisfies the common everyday definition of collusion. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2018, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/4899 "2018-08-19T21:21:06Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > Papadopoulos lying to the FBI to help Misfud escape the FBI’s jurisdiction is yet another thing that satisfies the common everyday definition of collusion. No, if a bunch of Trump aides got played by Russia, that’s just people getting played. For collusion, on the part of Trump himself, you need something like that he was working through Manafort and Gates to actively move money from Russia, through the NRA, into his campaign. Or, him being aware that and encouraging of his son to meet with people to collect information about his opponent from, what he believed to be, the Russian intelligence services. Or, asking his team to remove protecting Ukraine from the Republican party platform, in the belief that Russia would use their security apparatus in his favor if he flirted at them hard enough. Basically you need him to be aware of the chance to do something illicit and supportive of it. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2018, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/4900 "2018-08-19T23:54:20Z")
However, to have collusion between the Trump **campaign** and Russia you just need to have members of the campaign be aware of the chance to do something illicit and supportive of it. And we have that already. Three or four times over. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2018, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/4901 "2018-08-19T23:56:37Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > No, if a bunch of Trump aides got played by Russia, that’s just people getting played. > > For collusion, on the part of Trump himself, you need something like that he was working through Manafort and Gates to actively move money from Russia, through the NRA, into his campaign. Or, **him being aware that and encouraging of his son to meet with people to collect information about his opponent from, what he believed to be, the Russian intelligence services.** Or, asking his team to remove protecting Ukraine from the Republican party platform, in the belief that Russia would use their security apparatus in his favor if he flirted at them hard enough. > > Basically you need him to be aware of the chance to do something illicit and supportive of it. Collusion isn’t a crime anyway. Conspiracy is the word you are looking for. The bolded part is that. The rest looks very probable at this point. Everyone who knew is a conspirator, not a colluder. To be a colluder is a much lower bar. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/4902 "2018-08-20T00:09:21Z")
I’ve posted this before but I guess I’ll post it again. The common everyday definition of collusion is secret cooperation. The Trump campaign and a large network of Russians working at the direction of the Kremlin had a common goal to get Trump elected. Furthermore, members of these two groups were secretly cooperating with each other. I don’t believe these facts are in dispute and this satisfies the common everyday definition of collusion. There are three or four examples of this already in the information that is publicly available. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/4903 "2018-08-20T20:15:43Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Everyone who knew is a conspirator, not a colluder. To be a colluder is a much lower bar. Meh… Merriam-Webster says collusion is: > [@](#): > > secret agreement or cooperation especially for an illegal or deceitful purpose In your mind, what form of conspiracy is not also collusion? Maybe there are lawful forms of an American colluding with Russia to swing an election, but I can’t think of any. Perhaps you know of some? We can say ‘colluding with the Russians to sway the election’ understanding we’re talking about a particular kind of criminal conspiracy. We can truthfully say ‘Alice killed Bob’ without derailing the conversation to decide whether it was justifiable homicide or first degree murder. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/4904 "2018-08-20T21:08:01Z")
All conspiracy is collusion, but not all collusion is conspiracy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799.md?page=244) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799.md?page=246)