# Trump associates may have coordinated with Russians, according to US officials **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 23, 2017, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799 "2017-03-23T00:28:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 255
**Author:** ![Dacien](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dacien/32/5663_2.png) [@Dacien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dacien)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5085 "2018-11-27T02:58:20Z")
Are you implying that Don Jr. did? Because I’m not aware that he did that. He was offered information. I’m going to take a wild stab here and guess you’re talking about Trump’s, “Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you can find those 30,000 emails Hillary deleted.” If that’s what you mean, I think it would be hard to prove in a court that that was a serious request. I certainly thought he was being snarky at the time, but I can’t get inside his head. The important thing is that I wonder how easily it could be proven that Trump was attempting to solicit criminal action at a press conference. ---
**Author:** ![Dacien](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dacien/32/5663_2.png) [@Dacien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dacien)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5086 "2018-11-27T03:04:44Z")
I just want to say I’m thoroughly impressed with this board so far. As a political junkie from another, less-moderated forum focused more on personal drama than actual discussion, this is a breath of fresh air. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5087 "2018-11-27T03:11:17Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Did Clinton, or anyone else since Nixon, explicitly request that a foreign government engage in illegal activity against their opponent? > > Actually even Nixon didn’t do that-- He had Americans to do all of his illegal activities. Yep, and that’s where the “spreading information of public interest” cutout that the mass media has, allowing them to publish top secret reports, hacked materials, etc. is unlikely to transfer from the media to political candidates. Legalizing the use of foreign spy networks by political candidates is, simply, far too dangerous a prospect to try and patch over with a fig leaf of “public interest”. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5088 "2018-11-27T03:20:47Z")
> [@Dacien](#): > > It doesn’t matter who hired who, or who offered and who sought. At least as far as the wording of the law goes. It does not differentiate between any of that. Including damaging information about a political rival as a “thing of value” would implicate any of those scenarios. Which is absurd. It really does. Campaigns are allowed to purchase things of value, but a thing of value given to a campaign must be reported as a campaign contribution. The Clinton campaign bought information from an American company. The Trump campaign was given information by the Russian government. Not remotely the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Dacien](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dacien/32/5663_2.png) [@Dacien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dacien)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5089 "2018-11-27T03:29:21Z")
Here’s the reading of it: > [@](#): > > **(b)Contributions and donations by foreign nationals in connection with elections.**[A foreign national shall not](https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/11/110.20), directly or indirectly, make a contribution or a donation of money or other thing of value, or expressly or impliedly promise to make a contribution or a donation, in connection with any Federal, State, or local election. > > … > > **(g)Solicitation, acceptance, or receipt of contributions and donations from foreign nationals.** No person shall knowingly solicit, accept, or receive from a foreign national any contribution or donation prohibited by paragraphs (b) through (d) of this section. If it was illegal what Don Jr. did because Veselnitskaya offered damaging information on a campaign rival as a “thing of value” in order to influence the election, then Russian sources offering damaging information on a campaign rival to Steele for the benefit of the Clinton campaign would also run afoul of the law. By the way, CFR 110.20 is the strongest argument I’ve seen for why Don Jr. is guilty of criminality. If there is some other law or code that you think applies I’m open to it. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5090 "2018-11-27T03:33:22Z")
> [@Dacien](#): > > Here’s the reading of it: > > If it was illegal what Don Jr. did because Veselnitskaya offered damaging information on a campaign rival as a “thing of value” in order to influence the election, then Russian sources \*\*offering damaging information on a campaign rival to Steele for the benefit of the Clinton campaign would also run afoul of the law. > \*\* > By the way, CFR 110.20 is the strongest argument I’ve seen for why Don Jr. is guilty of criminality. If there is some other law or code that you think applies I’m open to it. Please show where the Clinton campaign used any information gleaned from the Steele information to benefit her campaign. While you’re at it, show where Steele took steps to withhold the information he obtained from the FBI. ---
**Author:** ![Dacien](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dacien/32/5663_2.png) [@Dacien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dacien)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5091 "2018-11-27T03:39:18Z")
Like I said, the law doesn’t differentiate between that. Solicitation is enough to satisfy the requirements of the code. Further, providing or withholding the solicited information has no bearing on it’s criminal nature. What’s at issue here is solely whether damaging information from a foreign national on a campaign rival is classified as a “thing of value” in the code. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5092 "2018-11-27T03:40:15Z")
Oh, I disagree. Intent is everything. You’ll see that soon enough. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5093 "2018-11-27T03:40:31Z")
If you could at least make a passing reference to her e-mails, that would fill out my Bingo card and I win the waffle iron. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5094 "2018-11-27T03:41:31Z")
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**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5095 "2018-11-27T04:51:38Z")
> [@Dacien](#): > > It doesn’t matter who hired who, or who offered and who sought. At least as far as the wording of the law goes. It does not differentiate between any of that. Including damaging information about a political rival as a “thing of value” would implicate any of those scenarios. Which is absurd. You said “yet Don Jr doing the same thing”; I was merely pointing out that no, they did not do the same thing. Your characterization is completely incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5096 "2018-11-27T05:00:09Z")
> [@Dacien](#): > > Here’s the reading of it: > > If it was illegal what Don Jr. did because Veselnitskaya offered damaging information on a campaign rival as a “thing of value” in order to influence the election, then Russian sources offering damaging information on a campaign rival to Steele for the benefit of the Clinton campaign would also run afoul of the law. > > By the way, CFR 110.20 is the strongest argument I’ve seen for why Don Jr. is guilty of criminality. If there is some other law or code that you think applies I’m open to it. If he believed that he was going to be receiving hacked materials, then he would also be in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1030. And if he intended to use those materials in the election, then that could fall under 18 U.S.C. § 371. > **[The Crimes of Don Junior](https://publius2point0.wordpress.com/2018/07/31/the-crimes-of-don-junior/)** > > Fraud Fraud is a very ambiguous crime. In everyday speak, I think we have the general interpretation that if I misrepresent who I am, what my business is, etc. then I’ve committed fraud. That… ---
**Author:** ![Dacien](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dacien/32/5663_2.png) [@Dacien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dacien)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5097 "2018-11-27T05:04:23Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > You said “yet Don Jr doing the same thing”; I was merely pointing out that no, they did not do the same thing. Your characterization is completely incorrect. In the eyes of the cited code, they did the exact same thing. As I said, solicitation is enough to satisfy the requirements of a violation of the code. It doesn’t matter if the Clinton campaign used the information, or whether they provided it to the FBI after the fact, merely soliciting a “thing of value” from a foreign national is a violation (again, assuming damaging information on a political rival falls under the code). Now, if you want to argue that they solicited the information in order to hand it to the FBI, that’s an argument, but that’s not what happened. Steele approached the FBI on his own “out of a sense of duty”. And all that would need to happen is to follow the chain up. The Clinton campaign and the DNC hired a law firm, who in turn hired Fusion GPS, who in turn hired Steele. If Steele had instead been involved in a break-in at GOP headquarters to steal documents, the Clinton campaign would not be able to simply shrug and say they had nothing to do with it. The trail of money would lead right back to them and they would have to prove they had no knowledge of it, even though they were paying the bills. The law firm and Fusion GPS would have to do the same. Simply using intermediaries to keep degrees of separation between you and criminal endeavors is nothing new. Just to clarify, I’m not saying it _was_ illegal, I’m demonstrating that if it _were_ illegal, it would follow right back to the Hillary campaign. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > If he believed that he was going to be receiving hacked materials, then he would also be in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1030. > > And if he intended to use those materials in the election, then that could fall under 18 U.S.C. § 371. > > [The Crimes of Don Junior « Reason for a New Age](https://publius2point0.wordpress.com/2018/07/31/the-crimes-of-don-junior/) Yes but nothing in the email chain between him and Goldstone indicate any specificity regarding hacked materials. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5098 "2018-11-27T05:30:29Z")
> [@Dacien](#): > > In the eyes of the cited code, they did the exact same thing. \ Clinton: Campaign hires Fusion GPS to learn if the Trump campaign is engaging in criminal activity by conspiring with the Russian government to defraud the United States of a free and fair election, with no express or advance knowledge that the investigation will reveal such criminal activity. Fusion GPS hires Christopher Steele, a noted expert in Russian spycraft, to learn what is there to be learned. In fact, they learn that criminal activity is likely happening, and without telling the candidate, quietly refer the matter to the FBI for further and appropriate investigation. Trump: Campaign receives an email explicitly advertising that Russia is interested in illegally exploiting illegally-obtained information to further the candidate’s success in the election. All top campaign officials eagerly attend a meeting with Russians present and are disappointed when the “goods” are not made readily available. Yeah, those are the exact same thing in the eyes of the law. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5099 "2018-11-27T05:33:55Z")
Does it suddenly smell like a law school in here, or is it just me? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5100 "2018-11-27T05:37:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Does it suddenly smell like a law school in here, or is it just me? I caught a whiff, but this ain’t the Pit. Oh, and I hope you’ll share your waffle iron when you get it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5101 "2018-11-27T06:02:01Z")
Does it matter that the original contract was from a group of anti-Trump Republicans? As I recall, they stopped funding it after Il Douche got the nomination, and the Clinton people picked up the option. Why that would matter eludes me, a boor of little brain. Also, I further recall reliable testimony that the “spark” for the investigation arose from Pappaduplicitous. Anyway, the Russia thing isn’t popcorn-worthy anymore. A House investigation into what happened to the Inauguration money that went _poof_ - gone!..that will be worth a bowl or two. Trump is the David Copperfield of money. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5102 "2018-11-27T06:14:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Does it matter that the original contract was from a group of anti-Trump Republicans? No. > [@elucidator](#): > > As I recall, they stopped funding it after Il Douche got the nomination, and the Clinton people picked up the option. Why that would matter eludes me, a boor of little brain. It doesn’t matter. > [@elucidator](#): > > Also, I further recall reliable testimony that the “spark” for the investigation arose from Pappaduplicitous. Yup. In April 2016. Comey opened his investigation in July 2016. The Steele Dossier didn’t find its way to the FBI task force that understood its importance until October 2016. > [@elucidator](#): > > Anyway, the Russia thing isn’t popcorn-worthy anymore. A House investigation into what happened to the Inauguration money that went _poof_ - gone!..that will be worth a bowl or two. Trump is the David Copperfield of money. Personally, I think the Russia thing is about to get very popcorn-worthy. But since you’re bored, I think the far more riveting House investigation will be to learn more about Trump ordering the Justice Department to **prosecute** Hillary Clinton and James Comey. Attempting to use our institutions to Prosecute. His. Political. Enemies. Actually, I just lost my appetite. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5103 "2018-11-27T07:01:22Z")
> [@Dacien](#): > > In the eyes of the cited code, they did the exact same thing. As I said, solicitation is enough to satisfy the requirements of a violation of the code. It doesn’t matter if the Clinton campaign used the information, or whether they provided it to the FBI after the fact, merely soliciting a “thing of value” from a foreign national is a violation (again, assuming damaging information on a political rival falls under the code). And yet, by your own account, the Clinton campaign did no such thing: they did not solicit anything from any Russians. Oh wait, you posted that after you posted what I just quoted above: > [@Dacien](#): > > And all that would need to happen is to follow the chain up. > > The Clinton campaign and the DNC hired a law firm, who in turn hired Fusion GPS, who in turn hired Steele. If Steele had instead been involved in a break-in at GOP headquarters to steal documents, the Clinton campaign would not be able to simply shrug and say they had nothing to do with it. The trail of money would lead right back to them and they would have to prove they had no knowledge of it, even though they were paying the bills. The law firm and Fusion GPS would have to do the same. > > Simply using intermediaries to keep degrees of separation between you and criminal endeavors is nothing new. > > Just to clarify, I’m not saying it _was_ illegal, I’m demonstrating that if it _were_ illegal, it would follow right back to the Hillary campaign. You’ve demonstrated nothing like you think have. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5104 "2018-11-27T07:40:23Z")
> [@Dacien](#): > > Like I said, the law doesn’t differentiate between that. Solicitation is enough to satisfy the requirements of the code. Further, providing or withholding the solicited information has no bearing on it’s criminal nature. > > What’s at issue here is solely whether damaging information from a foreign national on a campaign rival is classified as a “thing of value” in the code. Aside from the personalities involved in what actually happened, as an abstract matter, would you see a difference in potential criminal culpability in these scenarios: 1. Campaign aide simply asks US National if they know anything derogatory on opposition candidate. 2. Campaign aide simply asks foreign national if they know anything derogatory on opposition candidate. 3. US person offers campaign aide derogatory information on candidate, with no particular reason to believe the information was illegally obtained. 4. Foreign person offers campaign aide derogatory information on candidate, with no particular reason to believe the information was illegally obtained. 5. Campaign aide asks anyone to undertake illegal activities to collect information on opposition candidate. The way I see it, 1-4 aren’t illegal at all, and 5 clearly is. Bringing us back to real-world events, and leaving out some nuances, the Steele dossier appears to generally be in line with number 2. What Don Jr sought to do is somewhere in the gray area of 4 and 5. I’m curious what your read is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799.md?page=254) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799.md?page=256)