# Trump associates may have coordinated with Russians, according to US officials **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 23, 2017, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799 "2017-03-23T00:28:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 257
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5125 "2018-11-28T18:25:01Z")
2 Trump answers to Mueller leaked Did not know about Trump tower meeting and did not hear about wikileaks from Stone [Two key answers from Trump to Mueller | CNN Politics](https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/28/politics/trump-mueller-answers-wikileaks-trump-tower/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5126 "2018-11-28T18:40:14Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > 2 Trump answers to Mueller leaked > > Did not know about Trump tower meeting and did not hear about wikileaks from Stone > > [https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/28/politics/trump-mueller-answers-wikileaks-trump-tower/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/28/politics/trump-mueller-answers-wikileaks-trump-tower/index.html) I’m gonna go way out on a limb and say that Trump Jr. almost certainly told Trump Sr. about the meeting, and that Mueller knows this. Trump is probably going to have to fall back on the “I don’t recall” defense. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5127 "2018-11-28T19:02:05Z")
> [@Defensive\_Indifference](#): > > … Trump is probably going to have to fall back on the “I don’t recall” defense. 'Round here we call that a “Sessions”. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5128 "2018-11-28T19:05:18Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > 2 Trump answers to Mueller leaked > > Did not know about Trump tower meeting and did not hear about wikileaks from Stone > > [https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/28/politics/trump-mueller-answers-wikileaks-trump-tower/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/28/politics/trump-mueller-answers-wikileaks-trump-tower/index.html) > [@Defensive\_Indifference](#): > > I’m gonna go way out on a limb and say that Trump Jr. almost certainly told Trump Sr. about the meeting, and that Mueller knows this. Trump is probably going to have to fall back on the “I don’t recall” defense. Someone please tell me: At what point does common sense kick in? How does _anyone_ still doubt that 1) Trump’s campaign conspired with Russians to subvert the election in Trump’s favor; and 2) that Trump was well aware of the fact from at least the time Manafort was hired to run his campaign? This is just not that hard, even from a legal point of view. Proof must be beyond a _reasonable_ doubt, not all possible doubt. ETA: By quoting you both, I am not implying you don’t understand this. I know you both do. It’s just the sort of garbage Trump followers buy, even in the face of the most nonsensical “explanations.” ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5129 "2018-11-28T19:09:02Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Someone please tell me: At what point does common sense kick in? For a good 35, 40 percent of us? Never. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5130 "2018-11-28T19:25:48Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > This is just not that hard, even from a legal point of view. Proof must be beyond a _reasonable_ doubt, not all possible doubt. But Trump won’t be on trial. Impeachment is a political decision, not a criminal one, and the bar for GOP Congressmen isn’t “all possible doubt”, or “reasonable doubt”, but “will brainwashed Fox news watchers still vote for me if I lie about this?” ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5131 "2018-11-28T19:39:05Z")
Which 20 GOP senators will vote to remove Trump from office? That assumes all Dems vote to remove him which may not happen. It will probably be much easier to vote him out in 2020 than to get rid of him via impeachment. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5132 "2018-11-28T19:46:08Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > Which 20 GOP senators will vote to remove Trump from office? That assumes all Dems vote to remove him which may not happen. It will probably be much easier to vote him out in 2020 than to get rid of him via impeachment. I’m tending to think it’s better to wait for 2020 rather than try impeachment. Impeachment will make his core supporters feel even more outraged and that the system is corrupt. It has the potential to make Trump into a martyr. It would also mean Pence becomes president, and I could see him winning in 2020. Long term, I think we’ll end up in a better place if Trump gets voted out in 2020 rather than impeached. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5133 "2018-11-28T20:47:27Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > But Trump won’t be on trial. Impeachment is a political decision, not a criminal one, and the bar for GOP Congressmen isn’t “all possible doubt”, or “reasonable doubt”, but “will brainwashed Fox news watchers still vote for me if I lie about this?” I do understand this but tend to reach for legal definitions due to career background. But just in general… WTF does it take for people to simply use their common sense? It’s a rhetorical question, but I simply can’t shake my head any harder. And of course you nailed it about the brainwashed Fox “news” watchers. The propaganda is the real problem. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5134 "2018-11-28T20:53:38Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > I’m tending to think it’s better to wait for 2020 rather than try impeachment. Impeachment will make his core supporters feel even more outraged and that the system is corrupt. It has the potential to make Trump into a martyr. It would also mean Pence becomes president, and I could see him winning in 2020. Long term, I think we’ll end up in a better place if Trump gets voted out in 2020 rather than impeached. I think I agree with this. Impeachment forces everyone to pick a side and a certain percentage of undecideds will indeed side with Donald as some kind of gag reflex. Drag out the exposure of the greed, graft and willingness to subvert American interests, however, and in 23(!) months all the undecideds (who are needed) are just sick of him. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5135 "2018-11-28T21:09:23Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > I think I agree with this. Impeachment forces everyone to pick a side and a certain percentage of undecideds will indeed side with Donald as some kind of gag reflex. Drag out the exposure of the greed, graft and willingness to subvert American interests, however, and in 23(!) months all the undecideds (who are needed) are just sick of him. as I understand that you need the 75% of the Senate to convict, which you will never get, indeed it is the wisest idea to investigate and hamper and let him behave in the very extremely irritating fashion (and do the economic damage) to cripple- he then is the crippled bird for the next election. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5136 "2018-11-28T21:25:03Z")
it is 67% percent to convict but they are not going to get that barring some miracle happening ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5137 "2018-11-28T21:35:35Z")
Marcy Wheeler [points out](https://twitter.com/emptywheel/status/1067866478312075265) that in Mueller filings Roger Stone went from someone who had “regular contact with senior members” of the campaign in previous filings to someone who had “regular contact with senior members including then candidate Donald J. Trump” in the most recent one. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5138 "2018-11-28T22:03:36Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > I’m tending to think it’s better to wait for 2020 rather than try impeachment. Impeachment will make his core supporters feel even more outraged and that the system is corrupt. It has the potential to make Trump into a martyr. It would also mean Pence becomes president, and I could see him winning in 2020. Long term, I think we’ll end up in a better place if Trump gets voted out in 2020 rather than impeached. To some extent, I’m less concerned about this than with the systemic issues. Trump is not a great President. But that said, he’s limited in his badness by those confirmed by the Senate, and they’re doing their best to turn his crap into gold, and sometimes coming up with some halfway decent stuff. Leaving the postal system, for example, was a great move. The NAFTA re-negotiation seems to include some real measures relevant to Trump’s aim to protect American manufacturing. In the last six months (basically, since hiring John Bolton - I feel like he and Kushner have formed a power couple, to do reasonable work) the administration has not been horrible in terms of what they’re actually doing. Obviously, a Left-head might disagree, but the direction of the policy aside, they’re at least doing that policy in a reasonable fashion. If Pence comes in, he’ll be a lame duck President, he’ll continue those policies that ended up reasonable and shut down the ones that never became better than crap. But, overall, the practical output of the Executive branch will not be wildly different. For Trump to skate is sort of like OJ Simpson going free. It enraged those who had decided he was guilty and was seen as a big win for those who had decided he was innocent. But in the greater scheme of things, one murderer got off and the world continued on. There was no big change. The guilty verdict would have only really mattered to a very small number of people, and for the rest it was just entertainment. But it doesn’t really matter whether Trump is removed from office largely because he’s just so strongly incompetent. His own intent to screw everyone just always backfires, and he’s hamstrung by a Senate who knows that he is incompetent and has seen to it that the leash is strung short. But what if, instead of Trump, we had a President who was _competent_ and criminal? One who strongly needed to go, in order to prevent the country from, for example, tossing the Senate, electing a President-for-life, etc. If our system can’t toss Donald J Trump, based on all of the criminal evidence in the world that he worked with a foreign power to defeat the integrity of the election, then what hope do we have when someone _competent_ comes along who **needs** to get kicked out? We need to reform the system. That’s the more pressing concern than Trump. And yet, it’s not what either party was trying to sell in the last election, and nor am I optimistic about the next. I’m sure a few small tweaks will be introduced but, fundamentally, you need all of the partisans and populists to vote for measures that reduce partisanship and decrease the public’s (and corporate) impact and visibility into the political process. ---
**Author:** ![Dacien](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dacien/32/5663_2.png) [@Dacien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dacien)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5139 "2018-11-28T23:54:34Z")
> [@Defensive\_Indifference](#): > > I’m gonna go way out on a limb and say that Trump Jr. almost certainly told Trump Sr. about the meeting, and that Mueller knows this. Trump is probably going to have to fall back on the “I don’t recall” defense. I find it hard to believe that Trump Sr. didn’t know, and iirc, there are some questions surrounding Hope Hicks and the entire timeline that strongly suggest that he knew, but I haven’t looked at that in a while. I’ve long believed that Trump is much, much more likely to get nailed for either lying or obstruction than any kind of collusion conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![Dacien](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dacien/32/5663_2.png) [@Dacien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dacien)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5140 "2018-11-28T23:58:32Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > I’m tending to think it’s better to wait for 2020 rather than try impeachment. Impeachment will make his core supporters feel even more outraged and that the system is corrupt. It has the potential to make Trump into a martyr. It would also mean Pence becomes president, and I could see him winning in 2020. Long term, I think we’ll end up in a better place if Trump gets voted out in 2020 rather than impeached. Their base really wants it, but at the same time, they don’t want to be seen as simply harassing the president over things that have no hope of bearing fruit, but instead just make him look bad. There’s definitely a sense that it would need to be something truly substantive in order for Democrats to proceed with impeachment. Edit: double post, ya’ll need a five-minute delete button. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5141 "2018-11-29T00:04:29Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > it is 67% percent to convict but they are not going to get that barring some miracle happening You might get it if Trump shot ~25 republican Senators. Still a close call. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5142 "2018-11-29T01:34:08Z")
I feel like this will become a notable point at some time in the future: > **[Manafort-Trump talks baffle legal community](https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/418816-manafort-trump-talks-baffle-legal-community/)** > > Members of the legal community are at a loss for why former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort decided to brief President Trump’s attorneys on the discussions he’s had with special counsel Rober… ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5143 "2018-11-29T01:56:32Z")
Also potentially relevant in coming times: > **[How a future Trump Cabinet member gave a serial sex abuser the deal of a...](https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article220097825.html)** > > Palm Beach multimillionaire Jeffrey Epstein was accused of sexually abusing dozens of underage girls. Prosecutors, including future Trump labor secretary Alexander Acosta, cut Epstein an extraordinary plea deal. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5144 "2018-11-29T02:23:27Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > You might get it if Trump shot ~25 republican Senators. Still a close call. And if one of those 25 was Ted Cruz, the Senate would back Trump no matter what. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799.md?page=256) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799.md?page=258)