# Trump associates may have coordinated with Russians, according to US officials **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 23, 2017, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799 "2017-03-23T00:28:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 268
**Author:** ![Dacien](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dacien/32/5663_2.png) [@Dacien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dacien)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5345 "2018-12-14T23:48:29Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Buckle up for the next few weeks my friends. Ben Shapiro’s latest prognostication is that we should buckle up for a bumpy _two years_. And I think he might be right. There’s enough here to twist the screws on Trump, which will stoke partisan divide further. Our lives are in the hands of the moderates, wherever they are. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5346 "2018-12-14T23:50:27Z")
> [@Dacien](#): > > Ben Shapiro’s latest prognostication is that we should buckle up for a bumpy _two years_. And I think he might be right. There’s enough here to twist the screws on Trump, **which will stoke partisan divide further**. Our lives are in the hands of the moderates, wherever they are. There is no real partisan divide anymore, IMO. You’re either on the side of the law or you’re not. You’re either on the side of a broad representative democracy or you’re not. For the next two years, IMO, there is no “partisan” divide. ---
**Author:** ![Dacien](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dacien/32/5663_2.png) [@Dacien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dacien)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5347 "2018-12-14T23:59:35Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > There is no conceivable level of court scrutiny greater than a guilty plea. Former SDNY federal prosecutor [Andrew McCarthy](https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/michael-cohen-donald-trumps-payoffs-to-mistresses-as-in-kind-contributions/) has an article out today which describes what I was saying on Wednesday: "Because Cohen never challenged the legal sufficiency of the charge, Judge Pauley never ruled on it. …all Judge Pauley did in Cohen’s case was accept guilty plea. Without ruling on the matter, he assumed that the charge was legally adequate. In a guilty plea, the defendant typically waives his right to challenge legal and factual issues on appeal. The most we can say, then, is that the matter is settled as to Cohen, but that’s because of the waiver, not because the judge made a ruling on the pertinent question. The bottom line is that the issue is not settled as to President Trump. **The fact that Cohen pled guilty to two ostensible felonies does not establish that they actually are felonies** (except as to Cohen, because he has forfeited the right to contest that point)." (Emphasis mine) ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5348 "2018-12-15T00:59:38Z")
> [@Dacien](#): > > Former SDNY federal prosecutor [Andrew McCarthy](https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/michael-cohen-donald-trumps-payoffs-to-mistresses-as-in-kind-contributions/) has an article out today which describes what I was saying on Wednesday: > > "Because Cohen never challenged the legal sufficiency of the charge, Judge Pauley never ruled on it. …all Judge Pauley did in Cohen’s case was accept guilty plea. Without ruling on the matter, he assumed that the charge was legally adequate. In a guilty plea, the defendant typically waives his right to challenge legal and factual issues on appeal. The most we can say, then, is that the matter is settled as to Cohen, but that’s because of the waiver, not because the judge made a ruling on the pertinent question. > > The bottom line is that the issue is not settled as to President Trump. **The fact that Cohen pled guilty to two ostensible felonies does not establish that they actually are felonies** (except as to Cohen, because he has forfeited the right to contest that point)." > > (Emphasis mine) Yes, in a legal sense it has not been established, which is why Trump is not currently jail. In a colloquial sense, we have someone going to jail for 3 years because of a crime he admits he did, and he also says that Trump is guilty of that same crime, and he further says that he handed over plenty of evidence of Trump’s guilt to federal prosecutors. It has been established that the payment was made in violation of campaign finance laws for all practical purposes. If you want to caveat that with some qualifier, fine, but I don’t see the need to do so in a casual conversation. Continuing to hang your hat on the sliver of hope that Trump wasn’t complicit, or the fact that Trump hasn’t had his day in court, is sort of missing the point. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5349 "2018-12-15T03:50:26Z")
[quote=“Dacien, post:5347, topic:782799”] … **The fact that Cohen pled guilty to two ostensible felonies does not establish that they actually are felonies** [QUOTE] [Hang in there Baby](https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=cat+hang+in+there+baby+picture&fr=yfp-t&imgurl=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-n_O0bcmhCQw%2FT9y0dtUPDDI%2FAAAAAAAAGMY%2F8V0mVbwZ51Q%2Fs1600%2Fhang-in-there.jpg#id=3&iurl=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-n_O0bcmhCQw%2FT9y0dtUPDDI%2FAAAAAAAAGMY%2F8V0mVbwZ51Q%2Fs1600%2Fhang-in-there.jpg&action=click) Amazing at how Trump supports are so desperate to grasp at straws. They must admit at some point that the cute fox they invited into their home is actually a rabid raccoon. But some still can’t do it. This is really text book stuff. Amazing study of human nature. ---
**Author:** ![Dacien](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dacien/32/5663_2.png) [@Dacien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dacien)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5350 "2018-12-15T04:20:36Z")
I’m not so concerned with whether Trump is or is not guilty, per se, but rather the idea that steronz posited, which was that a confession meant that a crime had been established. Which isn’t so. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5351 "2018-12-15T10:41:56Z")
> [@Dacien](#): > > I’m not so concerned with whether Trump is or is not guilty, per se, but rather the idea that steronz posited, which was that a confession meant that a crime had been established. Which isn’t so. No, let’s back up. The reason we’re quibbling over the word “established” is because you posted links to legal analyses by pundits who say that there’s a high bar for campaign finance convictions because prosecutors need to prove intent. What we’re saying here is that the bar is not that high for Trump anymore, because the government’s star witness has already admitted the necessary intent and is singing like a canary. When you say a crime hasn’t been established you’re implying that prosecutors need to prove this wasn’t a clerical error. I’m saying, sure, but all they need to do for that is put Cohen on the stand and make him read his plea agreement. The “not a clerical error” aspect of the charge has, for all intents, been established. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5352 "2018-12-15T22:21:14Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Word. > > ETA: I have a private bet with myself that Russia makes another Ukrainian land grab before the end of the year. I think your bet is safe. An indicator of increasing tensions: the Ukrainian (Orthodox) church has cut ties with the Russian (Orthodox) church: > [@](#): > > Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has announced the creation of an independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church, marking a historic split from Russia. > He said national security depended on “spiritual independence” from Russia. > … > The Moscow branch of the Ukrainian Church has denied being a tool of the Kremlin, and says it has tried to bring about peace in eastern Ukraine. > … > Earlier this year, the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople - seen as the first among equals in the world’s Orthodoxy - overruled its decision dating back to 1686 to transfer its jurisdiction over Kievan Orthodox churches (known as the Kievan Metropolis) to Moscow. … > **[Ukraine Orthodox priests establish independent Church](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46575548)** > > The move has angered the Russian Orthodox Church, which fears its property in Ukraine could be seized. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2018, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5353 "2018-12-16T03:28:54Z")
> [@Dacien](#): > > I’m not so concerned with whether Trump is or is not guilty, per se, but rather the idea that steronz posited, which was that a confession meant that a crime had been established. Which isn’t so. If no crime had been “established”, there would have been no opportunity for a confession. You can march into court and confess to killing Abraham Lincoln, and you might well be restrained, but not arrested. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2018, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5354 "2018-12-16T05:16:40Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > Edwards was not guilty on 1 count and a hung jury on the other 5 counts. They elected not to retry him. One thing in his favor was he kept paying his mistress after the campaign was over so it was not just to keep the story quiet while he was running. The Edwards case is very different from Trump’s. John Edwards mistress gave birth to his child and his argument that he was simply providing financial support to his child and her mother actually stands up pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2018, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5355 "2018-12-16T08:33:18Z")
Nothing criminal will happen to President Trump. He’s a good at deflecting time. Plus, he’s got Article 2 protections/powers that he’ll use. Vote in 2020. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2018, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5356 "2018-12-16T14:01:03Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > Nothing criminal will happen to President Trump. He’s a good at deflecting time. Plus, he’s got Article 2 protections/powers that he’ll use. > > Vote in 2020. While he’s sitting in office, sure; Even if he did something straight-up illegal like rob a bank, the evidence would be handed over to the legislative branch and it would be up to them to determine whether he should be impeached or not. After he’s left office he’s fair game, if the statue of limitations has not taken effect. And yes, he’s good at deflection but that’s because up to now his battery of lawyers were sufficient to wear down anything thrown at him. When he became President, the level of scrutiny reached a whole new league. Some Christians have used the phrase, “Your arms are too short to box with God.” Same goes for the DOJ no matter who Donny Two-scoops thinks they work for, and there are various state attorneys who’d like a shot as well. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2018, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5357 "2018-12-16T14:09:49Z")
And the state attorneys are going to be key, I think. If rumor becomes truth, Trump will resign with 10 minutes left in his term, and Pence pardons him. But a presidential pardon only applies to federal crimes. The state attorneys would still be free to indict Trump, and Trump/Pence would be unable to stop them. Of course, if Trump takes a pardon, he also loses his ability to plead the 5th Amendment. I’m no expert on the law, but that could also be a huge deal going forward. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5358 "2018-12-18T17:43:32Z")
“Flynn’s lawyers have asked the court for a probation term of no more than one year, with minimal conditions of supervision, and 200 hours of community service. They said he deserved leniency because he was not warned before the meeting with FBI agents that it was a crime to lie to the agents.” Get the fuck outta here!!! :smack::smack::smack: > **[Judge excoriates Trump ex-adviser Flynn, delays Russia probe sentencing](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-flynn/judge-blasts-former-trump-adviser-flynn-ahead-of-sentencing-idUSKBN1OH0D7)** > > A U.S. judge fiercely criticized President Donald Trump's former national security adviser Michael Flynn on Tuesday for lying to FBI agents in a probe into Russian interference in the 2016 election, and delayed sentencing him until Flynn has finished... ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5359 "2018-12-18T21:10:31Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > “Flynn’s lawyers have asked the court for a probation term of no more than one year, with minimal conditions of supervision, and 200 hours of community service. They said he deserved leniency because he was not warned before the meeting with FBI agents that it was a crime to lie to the agents.” > > Get the fuck outta here!!! > :smack::smack::smack: > > [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-flynn/judge-blasts-former-trump-adviser-flynn-ahead-of-sentencing-idUSKBN1OH0D7](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-flynn/judge-blasts-former-trump-adviser-flynn-ahead-of-sentencing-idUSKBN1OH0D7) Which is funny, because he told the judge today that “he was aware” lying to the FBI is a crime. Pretty impressive to have a defendant and his counsel contradicting themselves in the same hearing. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5360 "2018-12-18T22:43:05Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Which is funny, because he told the judge today that “he was aware” lying to the FBI is a crime. Pretty impressive to have a defendant and his counsel contradicting themselves in the same hearing. The judge seemed to take a dim view of that. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5361 "2018-12-18T23:55:20Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > The judge seemed to take a dim view of that. Sullivan knew what Flynn’s defense team was doing (which was simultaneously claiming leniency for remorse and cooperation and also claiming that he was duped into pleading guilty) and took steps to mitigate it by putting Flynn back under oath and asking him questions about his understanding of what actually happened. Flynn had a choice to either stick with the defense’s sentencing memo story about being duped and perjuring himself or telling the truth and contradicting the sentencing memo. He chose to limit his own exposure, and the judge delayed sentencing to give Flynn time to make up his mind if he actually knew anything else he wanted to tell Mr. Mueller. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2018, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5362 "2018-12-19T00:04:34Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Sullivan knew what Flynn’s defense team was doing (which was simultaneously claiming leniency for remorse and cooperation and also claiming that he was duped into pleading guilty) and took steps to mitigate it by putting Flynn back under oath and asking him questions about his understanding of what actually happened. Flynn had a choice to either stick with the defense’s sentencing memo story about being duped and perjuring himself or telling the truth and contradicting the sentencing memo. He chose to limit his own exposure, and the judge delayed sentencing to give Flynn time to make up his mind if he actually knew anything else he wanted to tell Mr. Mueller. I suspect the judge also gave the sentencing extension to cool off - dude was _pissed_ at Flynn and the defense team!😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2018, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5363 "2018-12-19T00:40:34Z")
Judgement from the case of the mystery subpoena: [https://lawfare.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/staging/2018/395974126-12-18-18-DC-Circuit-Grand-Jury-Subpoena.pdf](https://lawfare.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/staging/2018/395974126-12-18-18-DC-Circuit-Grand-Jury-Subpoena.pdf) Apparently it was against a company that is controlled by a foreign country - so a nationalized business of some form. The company claimed sovereign immunity and the court has decided against them. Gazprom? Some Saudi company? Hard to say. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2018, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/5364 "2018-12-19T00:50:56Z")
> [@galen\_ubal](#): > > I suspect the judge also gave the sentencing extension to cool off - dude was _pissed_ at Flynn and the defense team!😃 Reporting now on CNN: Flynn ordered to surrender passport and stay within 50 miles of Wash. D.C. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799.md?page=267) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799.md?page=269)