# Trump associates may have coordinated with Russians, according to US officials **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 23, 2017, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799 "2017-03-23T00:28:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/763 "2017-07-11T18:53:20Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Ah, the old “_we’re_ just defending ourselves against _those_ guys” line … > > [Our guy] trying to uncover [their guy’s] dealings with Russia = good. > > [Their guy] trying to uncover [our guy’s] dealings with Russia = bad. > > Works for True Believers. Not for me. Are you suggesting that the Trump campaign was merely trying to discover Hillary’s efforts to collude with the Russians to win the election? If so, what is that based on? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/764 "2017-07-11T18:54:27Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > First of all, where did Donnie think the information came from? Rainbow-riding unicorns? No, it came from the Russians. Russians do not act independently, any that interact with foreigners do so with permission from the Kremlin. How did he think the Russians got this info? Ebay? No, it was information stolen by spies. If you conspire to receive stolen espionage, you are a felon. It doesn’t matter if you didn’t complete the transaction, you tried to collude with spies from a hostile nation. You seem to be assuming that the damaging info being discussed is some random unconnected damaging info, which the Russians would have to have come upon via some sort of espionage. Possibly you’ve not read the emails. Per the emails, the info was “_some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia_”. So there’s no implication of any espionage or stealing. It was about Clinton’s supposed dealings with Russia, and the Russians would have this knowledge by virtue of being the people she dealt with. Remarkably similar to the efforts to expose Manafort et al’s dealings with Russia/Ukraine, actually. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/765 "2017-07-11T18:57:16Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Hey hey hey!! Swamp Thing would make a fantastic President! _…Swamp Thing! You make my brain stink! You make everything…greasy!.._ ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/766 "2017-07-11T18:58:52Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Are you suggesting that the Trump campaign was merely trying to discover Hillary’s efforts to collude with the Russians to win the election? If so, what is that based on? Did not the Dems pay Christopher Steele (a foreigner) to dig up dirt on Trump? And did not said agent pay Russians for his ‘dossier’? I’m just throwing poo at the wall, i doubt Hillary knew about all that. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/767 "2017-07-11T19:03:46Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Are you suggesting that the Trump campaign was merely trying to discover Hillary’s efforts to collude with the Russians to win the election? No. I’m asserting that - based on the Politico article - there’s nothing to indicate that DNC was merely trying to discover Trump’s efforts to collude with the Russians to win the election. If you’ve seen anything there which indicates otherwise, let me know what that might be. [After the focus of Russian election tampering came to the forefront, it’s easy to conflate any concern about Russian ties with election collusion, but that was not the case at the time the DNC was digging for stuff on Manafort, and there’s nothing to indicate that this had anything to do with their concerns.] ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/768 "2017-07-11T19:04:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > _…Swamp Thing! You make my brain stink! You make everything…greasy!.._ Seriously - have you not read Alan Moore’s series on Swamp Thing? It’s seven kinds of brilliance. You would love it. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/769 "2017-07-11T19:07:11Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Seriously - have you not read Alan Moore’s series on Swamp Thing? It’s seven kinds of brilliance. You would love it. President Swamp Thing wouldn’t put up with any of this “Climate change isn’t real” bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/770 "2017-07-11T19:10:11Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Are you suggesting that the Trump campaign was merely trying to discover Hillary’s efforts to collude with the Russians to win the election? If so, what is that based on? **Okrahoma** said so. What more do you need? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/771 "2017-07-11T19:10:15Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > But if he didn’t actually receive anything, is it still illegal? Not so clear, I don’t think. > [@](#): > > (a) Prohibition. It shall be unlawful for— > (2) a person to solicit…a contribution or donation described in subparagraph (A) or (B) of paragraph (1) from a foreign national. No receipt necessary. > [@](#): > > Moreover, I’m not sure that statute can be constitutionally applied to valuable information as a First Amendment matter. Gotta admit, I’m out of my depth there. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/772 "2017-07-11T19:12:14Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Can you expand on it - why do you think information coming \*\*from Russians \*\*about money going to DNC \*\*from Russia \*\*would be “stolen by spies” and not, you know, retrieved from a filing cabinet and xeroxed? The Russians wanted to help the Trump campaign win by telling them all about how the Russians were helping Hillary to win? Yeah, I’m sure that’s what they were doing. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/773 "2017-07-11T19:18:06Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’m asserting that - based on the Politico article - there’s nothing to indicate that DNC was merely trying to discover Trump’s efforts to collude with the Russians to win the election. There’s nothing to indicate that they _weren’t_, either, that I could see. Could you be clear about what the Politico article was saying that supports the point you 're making both now and earlier? (Like, with specific quotes?) It read like a gigantic bowl of mush, where they were just kinda bringing in everything that had any tangential connection with the alleged subject of the article. It was hard to figure out just what claims the reporter _was_ making. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/774 "2017-07-11T19:20:06Z")
Notably, the emails definitively discuss the Russian campaign to elect Trump, and DJT didn’t bat an eyelash at that assertion. Wouldn’t you expect him to respond with “Hey, wait a minute. The what now?” if this was the first he was hearing of it and that this was the extent of it? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/775 "2017-07-11T19:24:04Z")
Both Senior and Junior seem dim enough not to grasp that. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/776 "2017-07-11T19:31:11Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > There’s nothing to indicate that they _weren’t_, either, that I could see. > > Could you be clear about what the Politico article was saying that supports the point you 're making both now and earlier? (Like, with specific quotes?) It read like a gigantic bowl of mush, where they were just kinda bringing in everything that had any tangential connection with the alleged subject of the article. It was hard to figure out just what claims the reporter _was_ making. Can you clarify why you think I need to be clear about how the Politico article supports my point when you’re the one making claims about it? If you can’t support your claims, then you shouldn’t make them, rather than just making baseless assertions and then saying there’s nothing to indicate that they’re not true. If I were to take that approach, then I could make up all sorts of claims about what Trump Jr was looking for from the Russians and then say “There’s nothing to indicate that they _weren’t_, either, that I could see.” But that’s all silly. As it happens, there is plenty to indicate that the DNC was not looking for indications of collusion re the election. Both in the form of the info they were looking for, which was a lot about Manafort’s ties to pro-Russian Ukrainian politicians and related payoffs, and also in the timeline, which predated the election and Russian hacking concerns. But even if there weren’t, it makes no difference, as above. There’s no more indication that the DNC was looking for info about election hacking collusion than there is that Trump Jr was looking for it. If you start off with the assumption that your guys are all good and pure and the other guys are the embodiment of evil then it’s natural to ascribe high-minded motivations to your guys and low motivations to the other guys. But that has no value in any objective sense. ---
**Author:** ![skdo23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@skdo23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skdo23)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/777 "2017-07-11T19:33:43Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > We should rename this thread: “Trump Jr coordinates with Russians, according to Trump Jr.” Or just close this thread and start a new one with the Twitler Jr. posts pasted in. As the OP, I cringe every time I click on the Elections forum and see the bohemeth this thread has become. Also, my wife is really pissed about all of the female attention I’m getting just b/c I’m the guy who started the thread with \>40k views. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/778 "2017-07-11T19:36:22Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > This may be best suited for another thread, but my assumption was that a good share of Trump’s strongest supporters were likely to be - uh - not exactly friends of Russia. Because I’m wondering whether these apparent contacts will ever affect their support (or whether ANYTHING will.) > > Or do they respect Putin as a strongman who gets things done? Approval rates for Russia/Putin among the right [has improved](http://www.gallup.com/poll/204191/putin-image-rises-mostly-among-republicans.aspx) over the last couple years. Russia is a white country who stamps out gays, feminists, and other liberal agitators and adheres to more traditional cultural norms, especially regarding masculinity. They’re white. They fight terrorism and don’t like Muslims very much. Their kleptocratic system is admirable, if you’re in certain economic strata. Don’t be surprised if a lot of these right-wing groups are neck deep in Russian money. A couple years ago when conservative pundits started talking about how strong Putin is in comparison to Obama I thought yeah, I guess Obama could show his strength if he made everyone at Fox News drink polonium tea. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/779 "2017-07-11T19:56:08Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Can you clarify why you think I need to be clear about how the Politico article supports my point when you’re the one making claims about it? You didn’t make a claim here? > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > For example, [here’s a Politico article](http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/ukraine-sabotage-trump-backfire-233446) about DNC coordination with the Ukrainian government to get dirt on Trump and thus undermine his chances. Or here? > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’m asserting that - based on the Politico article - there’s nothing to indicate that DNC was merely trying to discover Trump’s efforts to collude with the Russians to win the election. So if you’d be so kind as to back up your assertions with an actual quote or two from that bowl full of mush (or the comb and the brush, or the quiet old lady whispering ‘hush’ ;)), I’d appreciate it. You’re the one who brought up the article as support for your position. It’s so amorphous that absent specific quotes, I’m saying that you can’t just wave your hand at it and say, “this supports me.” Because on that sort of strength of argument, we can play Argument Clinic all day. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/780 "2017-07-11T20:03:22Z")
It’s hard to take you seriously at this point. The first “claim” was something that you don’t appear to be disputing. In case you are, the relevant quote (among many others) might be: > [@Politico](#): > > Ukrainian government officials tried to help Hillary Clinton and undermine Trump by publicly questioning his fitness for office. They also disseminated documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggested they were investigating the matter, only to back away after the election. And they helped Clinton’s allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisers, a Politico investigation found. > > A Ukrainian-American operative who was consulting for the Democratic National Committee met with top officials in the Ukrainian Embassy in Washington in an effort to expose ties between Trump, top campaign aide Paul Manafort and Russia, according to people with direct knowledge of the situation. > > The Ukrainian efforts had an impact in the race, helping to force Manafort’s resignation and advancing the narrative that Trump’s campaign was deeply connected to Ukraine’s foe to the east, Russia. The second quote can be backed by a quote - it’s a statement that “the article doesn’t say X”, and statements of that nature don’t lend themselves to “actual quotes”. It’s the guy making the claims - in this case you - who needs an actual quote. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/781 "2017-07-11T20:23:09Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Did not the Dems pay Christopher Steele (a foreigner) to dig up dirt on Trump? And did not said agent pay Russians for his ‘dossier’? > I’m just throwing poo at the wall, i doubt Hillary knew about all that. I’m pretty sure that was Republicans who didn’t want Trump to get the nomination. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/782 "2017-07-11T20:24:33Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Hard to say for sure what you would do, because you’re not on a campaign and don’t know what’s SOP for campaigns. > > For example, [here’s a Politico article](http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/ukraine-sabotage-trump-backfire-233446) about DNC coordination with the Ukrainian government to get dirt on Trump and thus undermine his chances. Personally, I would be perfectly happy if both Hillary and Trump were investigated. I’d like it if this was added to Mueller’s list of duties. There is some argument to be made that a foreign country be able to campaign for their own interests, openly and publicly, in the United States. If the Ukraine or Russia wants to run TV ads and those ads are clearly marked as being the product of a foreign nation, then so be it. Using foreign nationals to use publicly available information and simple deductive process to find dirt on your opponent, also fine. You can have Americans do it. You can also have non-Americans do it. Asking people questions ain’t a crime, nor is Googling. But using a foreign nation’s spies and hackers in much the same way that Richard Nixon used his Plumbers, to break into places and steal goodies, is not acceptable. It’s no more acceptable that it’s a foreign national doing it than an American citizen. And if you’re not just working with individuals and their businesses, but the government of a foreign nation, then we’re getting beyond thievery and ethical violations and into treason. There should be no cooperation between a candidate of the US and a foreign government, in winning an election. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799.md?page=40)