# Trump associates may have coordinated with Russians, according to US officials **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 23, 2017, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799 "2017-03-23T00:28:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 48
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/943 "2017-07-13T17:03:13Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > It is a thing for laws that require actions be taken “knowingly” or some similar such. Ignorance of the nature of your action can be a valid defense. Ignorance _of the law_ is not. If I’m caught with an item that someone else stole and then sold to me, “I didn’t know it was stolen” is a valid defense. “I didn’t know it was illegal to buy stolen goods” is not. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/944 "2017-07-13T17:07:21Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > That’s true, and it is an element of conspiracy – one that can be hard to prove. Fortunately, my understanding is that proof is to the “reasonable person” standard, so if it can be shown that a reasonable person would or should have known it was illegal, then that’ll do. Well, there you have it. If the selected jury is representative if the nation, you can know to a reasonable degree of certainty that 1/3 will not budge from “Not guilty”, that probably 1/3 will not budge from “Guilty”, and that the other 1/3 will be therefore irrelevant. Between that and Trump’s power to pardon, it seems unlikely that anyone will be convicted. Even if it turns out to be provably so that they shot someone in the face. The only thing possibly standing in the way is voter outrage, but we’ll see… ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/945 "2017-07-13T17:09:11Z")
> [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](#): > > Further, it seems that he will not rest until everyone else does, too. Okra is nearly as tireless as KellyAnne Conway. And nearly as fetching, I’ll bet. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/946 "2017-07-13T17:09:18Z")
> [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](#): > > I think it would be sufficient to Okrahoma that it \*\*\*could \*\*\*be his motive, as he is always willing to extend the benefit of any doubt to Trump, his family, his current friends & associates,… > > Further, it seems that he will not rest until everyone else does, too. Okra is nearly as tireless as KellyAnne Conway. Speaking of Conway, did you catch her ‘visual aids’ act? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n76grjN7QVg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n76grjN7QVg) I’ve seen the light! There is no collusion! ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/947 "2017-07-13T17:18:59Z")
> [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](#): > > Well, there you have it. If the selected jury is representative if the nation, you can know to a reasonable degree of certainty that 1/3 will not budge from “Not guilty”, that probably 1/3 will not budge from “Guilty”, and that the other 1/3 will be therefore irrelevant. > > Between that and Trump’s power to pardon, it seems unlikely that anyone will be convicted. Even if it turns out to be provably so that they shot someone in the face. > > The only thing possibly standing in the way is voter outrage, but we’ll see… Don’t worry. I am pretty sure Aspenglow’s understanding of the “ignorance of the law” and “reasonable person” concepts are quite wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/948 "2017-07-13T17:23:36Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Speaking of Conway, did you catch her ‘visual aids’ act? > > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n76grjN7QVg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n76grjN7QVg) > > I’ve seen the light! There is no collusion! Reminds me of Frank Underwood debating education. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Cz3e2c_U3R8/maxresdefault.jpg "Lets Play the Vowel Game!") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz3e2c_U3R8) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/949 "2017-07-13T17:26:43Z")
[quote=“Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle, post:948, topic:782799”] Reminds me of Frank Underwood debating education. [/QUOTE] That’s hilarious…I’ve never seen House of Cards before, but I may start watching it now. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/950 "2017-07-13T17:29:39Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > From a legal standpoint, that can’t be used as a defense, can it? I had no idea that this was wrong? > > (Asking a question, not making a statement.) No, the columnist in question is not a lawyer. And it’s not a real, legal defense. That’s why I put in in quotes. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/951 "2017-07-13T17:33:19Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Don’t worry. I am pretty sure Aspenglow’s understanding of the “ignorance of the law” and “reasonable person” concepts are quite wrong. LOL, hand waving is always so persuasive. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/952 "2017-07-13T17:36:56Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > That’s hilarious…I’ve never seen House of Cards before, but I may start watching it now. 🙂 I had to stop because spouse expressed interest in watching with me, but then we did not follow through. So I only have season one under my belt. I think it was an uncharacteristic stumble for Frank Underwood. I don’t think you’ll find the series funny at all. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/953 "2017-07-13T17:43:15Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > LOL, hand waving is always so persuasive. 🙂 Hand waving? I don’t think you know what that means either. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/954 "2017-07-13T17:46:48Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Hand waving? I don’t think you know what that means either. Ok. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/955 "2017-07-13T17:55:40Z")
I quite clearly said you don’t know what you’re talking about and I based it on the wrongness of the words you typed. But you can easily show me to be the idiot by just giving a cite that proves this correct: [Quote=Aspenglow] my understanding is that proof is to the “reasonable person” standard, so if it can be shown that a reasonable person would or should have known it was illegal, then that’ll do [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/956 "2017-07-13T18:24:07Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I quite clearly said you don’t know what you’re talking about and I based it on the wrongness of the words you typed. But you can easily show me to be the idiot by just giving a cite that proves this correct: Cite within what context? An impeachment proceeding? A criminal prosecution? State? Federal? I spoke to my own general understanding. You seem to have a specific scenario in mind, so perhaps it would be helpful for you to post a cite demonstrating on what your certainty is based that I am wrong. I am comfortable that I understand the standard of legal proof within the meaning of reasonable doubt, meaning the “reasonable person” standard. I have no reason to believe the standard of proof would be anything else in criminal proceedings at any level of government except impeachment – and of that standard, I am less sure, because it seems Congress can decide what it likes. On what basis do you have a belief that the standard would be to something _other_ than that for prosecution of Donald Jr.? His vulnerability to prosecution would be at the federal or state levels, would they not? As for the “ignorance of the law” part of committing a crime, your and **scr4** ’s points are well made, that it can be an element of proof for some actions but not others. I don’t disagree with them. I am wrong that “knowingly” is an element of conspiracy, at least in the state where I encountered it. You don’t even have to know you were involved in a conspiracy to be convicted of it. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/957 "2017-07-13T18:43:58Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Ignorance of the nature of your action can be a valid defense. Ignorance _of the law_ is not. > > If I’m caught with an item that someone else stole and then sold to me, “I didn’t know it was stolen” is a valid defense. “I didn’t know it was illegal to buy stolen goods” is not. According to Paul Ryan, it is an affirmative defense if you are new to buying stolen goods. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/958 "2017-07-13T18:47:14Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Cite within what context? An impeachment proceeding? A criminal prosecution? State? Federal? > > I spoke to my own general understanding. You seem to have a specific scenario in mind, so perhaps it would be helpful for you to post a cite demonstrating on what your certainty is based that I am wrong. What context? How is an impeachment or a non-criminal case remotely within the discussion? Why don’t you give a single context where what you said is correct? “Ignorance of the law” principle has nothing to do with the “reasonable person” concept. wiki: > [@](#): > > Ignorantia juris non excusat[1] or ignorantia legis neminem excusat[2] (Latin for “ignorance of the law excuses not”[1] and “ignorance of law excuses no one”[2] respectively) is a legal principle holding that a person who is unaware of a law may not escape liability for violating that law merely because one was unaware of its content. > [@](#): > > As a legal fiction,[3] the “reasonable person” is not an average person or a typical person, leading to great difficulties in applying the concept in some criminal cases, especially in regards to the partial defence of provocation.[7] The standard also holds that each person owes a duty to behave as a reasonable person would under the same or similar circumstances.[8][9] While the specific circumstances of each case will require varying kinds of conduct and degrees of care, the reasonable person standard undergoes no variation itself.[10][11] The “reasonable person” construct can be found applied in many areas of the law. The standard performs a crucial role in determining negligence in both criminal law—that is, criminal negligence—and tort law. When you are this wrong and clearly relying on hazy memory, I really am baffled that you’d defend your statement this much. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/959 "2017-07-13T19:19:50Z")
> [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](#): > > I had to stop because spouse expressed interest in watching with me, but then we did not follow through. So I only have season one under my belt. I think it was an uncharacteristic stumble for Frank Underwood. I don’t think you’ll find the series funny at all. Yeah, I’ve heard a bit about the series, and I’m a big Spacey fan. Really, I don’t know why I never bothered to watch it before, other than that more imprtant things crowded it out. ---
**Author:** ![aurora\_maire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aurora_maire/32/328_2.png) [@aurora\_maire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurora_maire)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/960 "2017-07-13T22:03:56Z")
> **[Mike Pence's Press Secretary Won't Say If His Boss Met With Russians](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/mike-pence-marc-lotter-fox-news-no-answer_n_5966f931e4b0a8d46d12100b?section=us_politics)** > > “Just to nail this down so we’re clear: Is that a yes or a no?" Mike Pence’s spokesman won’t say if Pence met with Russians. Hmmm. Not too long ago, Pence said he was absolutely certain that no one in the administration ever did. Guess he didn’t tell his spokesman that. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/961 "2017-07-13T23:23:55Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > What context? How is an impeachment or a non-criminal case remotely within the discussion? Why don’t you give a single context where what you said is correct? > > “Ignorance of the law” principle has nothing to do with the “reasonable person” concept. > wiki: > When you are this wrong and clearly relying on hazy memory, I really am baffled that you’d defend your statement this much. Sorry for the delay in my response. That lawn wasn’t going to get itself mowed. I think we are talking past each other. I see nothing in your definitions that is different than what I was trying to say in my earlier posts. I think I can see where we went sideways, but it would have been helpful if, instead of attempting to be withering, you could have expressed specifically what deficiency you thought you saw in my post. I never said that I thought the “reasonable person” standard had anything to do with “ignorance of the law.” You’ll note that my first statement about ignorance of the law was in my post #935. I was responding directly to **Fiveyearlurker** ’s question about if ignorance of the law can be a defense. According to your own Wiki cite, it cannot. So what can possibly be the problem there? You and **scr4** then stated your opinions about the interpretation of “ignorance of the law,” and frankly, I don’t see where your “clarification” changed anything about the accepted doctrine that you can’t use ignorance of the law as a specific defense for having broken a law. There can be extenuating circumstances such as **scr4** pointed out, but as he said, it doesn’t change the underlying tenet. I then responded in my post #940 to **PatriotX** ’s point that in some cases, “knowingly” is a required element of proof. I interpreted his use of the word “knowingly” to mean “intent,” and within that meaning, he is absolutely right. I used conspiracy as an example, but I double-checked and it isn’t an element of conspiracy. As an example, however, in California, it is an element of the crime of aggravated mayhem. You can’t prove the crime of aggravated mayhem without proving that the defendant _intended_ to cause someone a permanent disability or disfigurement, or deprive him/her of a limb, organ or member. In other words, that they _knowingly_ caused someone a permanent disability or disfigurement, etc. Warning: Link contains an unpleasant picture. [Elements of Mayhem](http://www.shouselaw.com/mayhem.html) You’re the only one in the thread who _assumed_ the law **PatriotX** and I were talking about was “ignorance of the law.” I wasn’t, and I don’t think he was, either, since he referred to “laws,” not “law.” So do you now understand that my response about a “reasonable person” was not directed to the assertion of “ignorance of the law” as a defense? One response had nothing to do with the other. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/962 "2017-07-13T23:54:29Z")
Yeah, you and me are the only ones who want to be in this dumb argument. Not sure that proves your right so much as this is a stupid argument. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799.md?page=47) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799.md?page=49)