# Trump associates may have coordinated with Russians, according to US officials **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 23, 2017, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799 "2017-03-23T00:28:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 95
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1884 "2017-08-12T08:39:42Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > If he was smart he’d keep his mouth shut, sure. Word on the street, though, is that he’s monumentally stupid. That’s the word on the street, hunh? Trouble is, String, we ain’t on the street. We in the Electoral College. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1885 "2017-08-12T09:33:44Z")
I hate to say anything in support of Trump, but he does have a point that the reduction in Russian diplomatic staff will save the US money, since the majority of those losing their jobs will apparently be Russian civilians employed by the embassies and consulates and not State Dept employees. > [@](#): > > The bulk of the 755 dismissed are likely to be Russian employees of the embassy in Moscow, as well from the American consulates in St. Petersburg, Yekaterinburg and Vladivostok. > > The United States Embassy in Moscow has declined to specify the number of people on its payroll in Russia, and the Russian Foreign Ministry has also refused to say how it arrived at its count, but the numbers seemed to indicate that there are around 1,200 people employed. > > It is not clear how many Americans could be expelled, if any. > > Unlike Russian diplomatic missions in the United States, which tend not to hire Americans, the United States employs hundreds of Russians at the embassy who do tasks like translation, processing visa applications, cooking and driving. > > “They will have to fire the Russian citizens,” Mr. Frolov said. “It will create an enormous inconvenience for the U.S. Mission here, essentially slowing down the work but not affecting its core functions.” From [here](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/30/world/europe/russia-sanctions-us-diplomats-expelled.html). ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1886 "2017-08-12T11:32:18Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > I hate to say anything in support of Trump, but he does have a point that the reduction in Russian diplomatic staff will save the US money, since the majority of those losing their jobs will apparently be Russian civilians employed by the embassies and consulates and not State Dept employees. If it was such a sound fiscal decision you have to wonder why Trump, the genius businessman, didn’t come up with it himself. But haven’t you heard, he was being [sarcastic](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-diplomats-sarcasm-idUSKBN1AR24L). ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1887 "2017-08-12T11:34:59Z")
Not even sure what you’re even arguing here. The collusion with Russia is done. They met with Russian officials that were offering to do illegal things. The only thing left is to prove that Trump knew about it. Trump Jr. didn’t keep his mouth shut. Why would Sr? Plus Trump is trying to start World War III now, so we need to stop quibbling and get him out of office. It’s like no one is even taking this seriously. Trump threatened war on North Korea, and is telling Americans to leave by September. That’s setup for a strike, which means Kim has no reason not to launch his best stuff to try and stop it. Stop making excuses for the guy who’s trying to kill us, and do what you can to get him out of office. If we have to use the Russia thing, fine. Just do it. I’d say how, but I’d be afraid breaking the rules on calls to action. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1888 "2017-08-12T13:16:16Z")
Nobody knew that impeachment was so hard. And let’s not even get started about that whole “removal from office” thingy. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1889 "2017-08-12T14:03:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Nobody knew that impeachment was so hard. And let’s not even get started about that whole “removal from office” thingy. Really hard when Pubbies haven’t got the balls to do anything about it. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1890 "2017-08-12T15:49:05Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Not even sure what you’re even arguing here. The collusion with Russia is done. They met with Russian officials that were offering to do illegal things. The only thing left is to prove that Trump knew about it. Trump knowing about illegal things that other people do isn’t necessarily a crime, but trying to impede a lawful investigation into said illegality, _is_. Or perhaps Trump has done a few other illegal things that are that are beginning to see the light of day. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1891 "2017-08-12T16:25:25Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Trump knowing about illegal things that other people do isn’t necessarily a crime, Yes it is…aiding and abetting and/or accessory after the fact. > [@](#): > > but trying to impede a lawful investigation into said illegality, _is_. Or perhaps Trump has done a few other illegal things that are that are beginning to see the light of day. Given his absolute opposition to having his and his family’s financial records scrutinized, I’d say it’s very likely. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1892 "2017-08-12T16:50:11Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Trump knowing about illegal things that other people do isn’t necessarily a crime… > [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Yes it is…aiding and abetting and/or accessory after the fact. I don’t think so, but I’m open to being convinced otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1893 "2017-08-12T17:12:36Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Yes it is…aiding and abetting and/or accessory after the fact. Aiding and abetting what? Despite all of the media blather about “collusion,” the fact is that “collusion’s” not necessarily a crime - I’m not sure anyone’s even really accurately defined precisely what in the hell it means. Having mutual interest in seeing a political figure lose is not a crime, and it’s not even necessarily collusion. Participating in schemes in order to make that become reality might be criminal, but good look proving that Trump aided or abetted anything. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1894 "2017-08-12T17:18:28Z")
“Collusion” isn’t. But conspiracy is. Just substitute that word every time you hear “collusion,” and it makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1895 "2017-08-12T17:44:06Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > “Collusion” isn’t. But conspiracy is. Just substitute that word every time you hear “collusion,” and it makes sense. Conspiracy to… what? You can’t just say “conspiracy” is a crime. There has to be a crime around which the conspiracy is formed. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1896 "2017-08-12T17:52:22Z")
Mueller getting closer to the [White House](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/12/us/politics/mueller-trump-russia-priebus.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news). Interesting quote: _“Mr. Mueller has expressed interest in speaking with other administration officials, including members of the communications team. But Mr. Trump’s allies are particularly concerned about Mr. Mueller’s interest in talking to Mr. Priebus, a former chairman of the Republican National Committee who worked closely with Mr. Trump during the presidential campaign. Mr. Trump’s confidants at the White House say Mr. Trump was never fully convinced that Mr. Priebus would be loyal to him.”_ Why would you be concerned about a co-worker’s loyalty if there is nothing to hide? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1897 "2017-08-12T18:44:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Conspiracy to… what? You can’t just say “conspiracy” is a crime. There has to be a crime around which the conspiracy is formed. You and I already had this conversation in this thread, starting with my post #1195. [Post #1195 and following](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=20347366#post20347366). You’ll note that the 4th element of conspiracy is: To violate federal law or **defraud the United States**. I think defrauding the United States out of a legitimate election would fit nicely. Or don’t you think that would constitute a crime? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1898 "2017-08-12T19:57:35Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > You and I already had this conversation in this thread, starting with my post #1195. I had a sense of deja vu, and was about to post that you know a thread has jumped the shark when you start rearguing stuff that’s already been put to rest. > [@](#): > > [Post #1195 and following](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=20347366#post20347366). > > You’ll note that the 4th element of conspiracy is: To violate federal law or **defraud the United States**. > > I think defrauding the United States out of a legitimate election would fit nicely. Or don’t you think that would constitute a crime? There are crimes related to election tampering, but which one refers to “defrauding the US out of a legitimate election”? Can you cite the specific part of the criminal code you are thinking of? This thread is so long, and so many accusations have been thrown around, it makes no sense to speak of “fraud” without saying which specific action you think constitutes “fraud”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1899 "2017-08-12T20:08:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > are crimes related to election tampering, but which one refers to “defrauding the US out of a legitimate election”? Can you cite the specific part of the criminal code you are thinking of? This thread is so long, and so many accusations have been thrown around, it makes no sense to speak of “fraud” without saying which specific action you think constitutes “fraud”. … remember that what we are talking about here is: > [@asahi](#): > > Trump knowing about illegal things that other people do isn’t necessarily a crime… So, just to be clear, you think there some US criminal code concerning “defrauding the US out of a legitimate election” that would include knowing about a crime committed by other people? I’m really gonna need a cite for that. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1900 "2017-08-12T20:21:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I had a sense of deja vu, and was about to post that you know a thread has jumped the shark when you start rearguing stuff that’s already been put to rest. > There are crimes related to election tampering, but which one refers to “defrauding the US out of a legitimate election”? Can you cite the specific part of the criminal code you are thinking of? This thread is so long, and so many accusations have been thrown around, it makes no sense to speak of “fraud” without saying which specific action you think constitutes “fraud”. The statute is the statute. It is criminal conspiracy. “Defraud” is an element of conspiracy that will be defined by the facts as they are determined to be. In the absence of a specific statute, it is case law and how such case law is interpreted by the finders of fact (usually a jury, but in this case, likely the Congress) that would ordinarily decide whether someone who attempted to sway an election through their use of hostile foreign assistance may rise to the level of “defrauding.” Doubt we’d find much (any?) statutory and/or case law on the matter to date since we’re in new territory here. Do you think there is a statute that says, “It is illegal to conspire with a hostile foreign government to sway the outcome of an election?” Or even case law? I don’t. (Admittedly, I haven’t looked.) I _did_ say which specific action I believe constitutes “fraud.” I think if someone works with a hostile, foreign government in an attempt to influence an election, it’s not difficult to view that as “defrauding.” The results of such an election _may be fraudulent_, directly due to their actions. Whether they succeeded or not is beside the point. The question is, _did they conspire to do that_? Hopefully this clarifies my position. You and others seem myopically invested in viewing these crimes solely through the lens of election law, which is very narrowly defined. I think it is far more likely that Trump and his associates have committed regular garden variety crimes like a straight-up conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1901 "2017-08-12T20:23:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > … remember that what we are talking about here is: > > So, just to be clear, you think there some US criminal code concerning “defrauding the US out of a legitimate election” that would include knowing about a crime committed by other people? I’m really gonna need a cite for that. No, I don’t think that. I think it is you who seems to believe that nothing can be found a crime if no one ever did it before. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1902 "2017-08-12T20:39:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > … remember that what we are talking about here is: > > So, just to be clear, you think there some US criminal code concerning “defrauding the US out of a legitimate election” that would include knowing about a crime committed by other people? I’m really gonna need a cite for that. Sorry; misunderstood your point. No, I don’t think that. But I do think that if you believe Trump wasn’t fully aware of and participated materially in what was being done by his campaign on his behalf, I’ve got a bridge you might be interested in purchasing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1903 "2017-08-12T20:40:35Z")
I’m afraid you jumped into the middle of conversation and then tried to change the conversation. Everything I posted on this page (starting with post 1889) was related to asahi’s statement that I quoted in my last post. That’s also what **Johnny** responded to. “Working with a foreign government” is not “knowing that someone else worked with a foreign government”. We are discussing the latter in those last few posts, and you are discussing the former. And I don’t know why you keep say things like “working with a _hostile_ government” as if the “hostile” part had something to do with the law regarding elections. If you broke the law by working with Great Britain to affect the election, you’d be no less guilty than if you had worked with Russia to do so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799.md?page=94) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799.md?page=96)