# Trump associates may have coordinated with Russians, according to US officials **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 23, 2017, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799 "2017-03-23T00:28:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 96
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1904 "2017-08-12T21:12:12Z")
My initial post in this discussion was simply to clarify that while it is true that “collusion” is not a crime, conspiracy is. I wasn’t trying to change any conversation. Past that, I responded directly to what you were posting and nothing else. I did read through the posts but didn’t feel that I was hijacking your discussion. To your point, I disagree Trump is innocent if he became aware others were doing illegal things and simply failed to report it. If he benefited as the candidate of the fraudulent election, then I think he becomes a co-conspirator, even if he did not actively engage in the conspiracy (which I frankly doubt). It’s similar to the getaway driver in a robbery being fully culpable for all crimes committed during the robbery, even though he didn’t actively have his hands on the money or the guns. It defies all reason to believe he was unaware. His comments made from the podium re “Russia, if you’re listening… Hillary’s 30,000 emails…” Also, his frantic, Herculean efforts to obstruct/stop the investigations are evidence of his consciousness of guilt. And these are just the things we know about. True re the necessity of the “hostile” part, but it really is so much worse. Russia actively works against our interests in the world in ways that Great Britain does not. You’re kinda nit-picking now. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1905 "2017-08-12T22:39:48Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Sorry; misunderstood your point. No, I don’t think that. But I do think that if you believe Trump wasn’t fully aware of and participated materially in what was being done by his campaign on his behalf, I’ve got a bridge you might be interested in purchasing. Missed this post. No, I’m not sure the “emphasis added” part happened, and no I’m not interested in any bridges. I’m not even sure he was fully aware of everything that went on by his staff-- is any candidate every fully aware of that? Oftentimes a candidate will deliberately distance himself from questionable activity precisely to preserve some deniable playability. Now, Trump’s ego may have gotten in the way of him doing that, but it’s far from clear that it did. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1906 "2017-08-12T22:56:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Missed this post. No, I’m not sure the “emphasis added” part happened, and no I’m not interested in any bridges. I’m not even sure he was fully aware of everything that went on by his staff-- is any candidate every fully aware of that? Oftentimes a candidate will deliberately distance himself from questionable activity precisely to preserve some deniable playability. Now, Trump’s ego may have gotten in the way of him doing that, but it’s far from clear that it did. No worries re missing the post. People have lives and goodness knows I miss them all the time. Back to the discussion: His behavior isn’t that of an innocent person. It doesn’t support why he’s worked so hard to thwart the investigations. He has regularly demonstrated zero compunction to throw anyone under the bus for any reason he perceives to be in his own self interest, no matter how loyal. That’s his character. You may find it “far from clear” that he knew. I see lots of evidence that he was fully aware. I’ve never heard of deniable playability. If it’s a way of saying plausible deniability, it’s kind of cute. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1907 "2017-08-12T22:56:45Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Aiding and abetting what? Despite all of the media blather about “collusion,” the fact is that “collusion’s” not necessarily a crime - I’m not sure anyone’s even really accurately defined precisely what in the hell it means. Having mutual interest in seeing a political figure lose is not a crime, and it’s not even necessarily collusion. Participating in schemes in order to make that become reality might be criminal, but good look proving that Trump aided or abetted anything. This was your original statement: > [@asahi](#): > > Trump knowing about **illegal** things that other people do isn’t necessarily a crime, but trying to impede a lawful investigation into said illegality, is. Emphasis mine. You weren’t making an argument against collusion being illegal. Knowing about illegal activity and doing nothing about it is, indeed, a crime. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1908 "2017-08-14T22:21:51Z")
[Trump campaign emails show aide’s repeated efforts to set up Russia meetings](https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/trump-campaign-emails-show-aides-repeated-efforts-to-set-up-russia-meetings/2017/08/14/54d08da6-7dc2-11e7-83c7-5bd5460f0d7e_story.html). The Derp State strikes again! ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1909 "2017-08-14T23:34:02Z")
Hey, Pence has Trump’s back, and vows that there was [no collusion with Russia](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pence-not-aware-of-any-russian-collusion-with-trump-campaign/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab7e&linkId=40960963), with no caveats. Well, he’s “not aware” of any collusion at at all with the Trump campaign at any time. Well at least “during the time that I was on the campaign” anyway. And he would know because he has all the information. Well, the information “what Michael Flynn had told” him. So, no caveats at all. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1910 "2017-08-14T23:51:29Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Hey, Pence has Trump’s back, and vows that there was [no collusion with Russia](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pence-not-aware-of-any-russian-collusion-with-trump-campaign/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab7e&linkId=40960963), with no caveats. Well, he’s “not aware” of any collusion at at all with the Trump campaign at any time. Well at least “during the time that I was on the campaign” anyway. And he would know because he has all the information. Well, the information “what Michael Flynn had told” him. So, no caveats at all. It’s probably the case that most politicians want to be President, so it wouldn’t be fair to criticize Pence for _that_. But, heavenly days, his maneuverings are certainly unlovely to behold. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1911 "2017-08-14T23:53:59Z")
Wasn’t so much a criticism as interesting to note how many caveats he threw into what could have been a very simple sentence: “There was no collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia”. Period. For some reason he was unable to make such a statement. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1912 "2017-08-15T02:44:14Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > This was your original statement: > > Emphasis mine. > > You weren’t making an argument against collusion being illegal. Knowing about illegal activity and doing nothing about it is, indeed, a crime. I’ll hedge a little and put emphasis on the word ‘necessarily’. In any case, this might be a Bricker question, but AFAIK, unless it is laid out in a statute, there’s not necessarily a law that says knowing about a crime is illegal in and of itself. To be sure there are laws that get to the heart of the intent to commit and/or conceal crimes, but those are statutes with which we are familiar. There are laws against **conspiracy** to commit a crime and there are laws that prohibit attempts to **obstruct justice** and provide false information to an investigator and providing false testimony in a courtroom – those are crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1913 "2017-08-15T13:49:11Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > [Trump campaign emails show aide’s repeated efforts to set up Russia meetings](https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/trump-campaign-emails-show-aides-repeated-efforts-to-set-up-russia-meetings/2017/08/14/54d08da6-7dc2-11e7-83c7-5bd5460f0d7e_story.html). > > The Derp State strikes again! That article is actually pretty exculpatory, headline notwithstanding. The article makes pretty clear that this “aide” was a junior volunteer with no real influence in the campaign, and that his repeated efforts to set up meetings with Russians were consistently rebuffed by senior campaign people (including Manafort). That seems inconsistent with the notion that these same people were also colluding with the Russians. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1914 "2017-08-15T14:39:59Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That article is actually pretty exculpatory, headline notwithstanding. > > The article makes pretty clear that this “aide” was a junior volunteer with no real influence in the campaign, and that his repeated efforts to set up meetings with Russians were consistently rebuffed by senior campaign people (including Manafort). That seems inconsistent with the notion that these same people were also colluding with the Russians. This “aide” had no real foreign policy experience and was a fairly recent college graduate. He had no business being on that team from a FP perspective. Of the 5 foreign policy advisers Trump named to the WaPo, 2 of them were Russian intermediaries (this guy and Carter Page). These emails show that discussion that happened BEFORE that infamous Trump Tower meeting where the legality of meeting with Russians, and the Logan Act, were discussed. Makes it a lot harder for campaign folks at that meeting to try and plead ignorance. This may not be a smoking gun of any kind but it’s certainly some new threads for Mueller to pull on and see what else he finds. Wanna bet there are other emails in this guy’s history that we don’t know about? [This is a very long Twitter thread by former prosecuting attorney Seth Abramson](https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/897229893339144193) that does a good job of laying out all of what is known and the timeline of what went on. It all ties into Rosnoft and that Mayflower Hotel meeting. I encourage you to read it without blinders. ETA: A good case made in the thread linked about that its very possible Carter Page met personally with Putin while he was in Russia (when he traveled there with the Trump campaign’s permission/go-ahead.) ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1915 "2017-08-15T14:42:46Z")
Good info here also: > **[New Trump-Russia emails could establish a 'devastating' legal entanglement...](https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-russia-emails-devastating-legal-papadopoulos-paul-manafort-2017-8)** > > "If you're Paul Manafort and your defense is to say, 'I didn't think taking this meeting was a problem' ... that's such devastating evidence in a trial." Key paragraphs: > [@](#): > > Mariotti wrote that perhaps the most important implication of the news was that “everyone on those emails was aware of the concerns expressed in the emails about meeting with Russians, including Admiral Kubic’s concern about the legality of meeting with [Russians].” > > “If anyone on those emails later met with Russians or accepted aid from them,” Mariotti continued, “the prior emails about concerns could be used to indicate that they knew that the meeting was problematic and potentially illegal but nonetheless persisted.” > [@](#): > > “If you’re Paul Manafort and your defense is to say, ‘I didn’t think taking this meeting was a problem,’ and then you have the prosecutor showing the jury emails that were sent a month earlier where people are raising precisely those same legal concerns — that’s such devastating evidence in a trial,” Wright said. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1916 "2017-08-15T14:50:41Z")
IANAL, but that seems silly to me. There is no legal category called “meeting with Russians”. A meeting with Russians could be legally problematic or not, depending on which Russians and what the purpose of the meeting was, and other matters of that sort. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1917 "2017-08-15T14:56:40Z")
Lol. When you have a jr aide who is sending out “GOT AN INVITE FROM PUTIN, WHO WANTS IN?” emails which are responded with “THIS ISN’T LEGAL, GUYS!” from campaign heads, yeah, there is a problem and it’s not so silly. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1918 "2017-08-15T15:14:46Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > IANAL, but that seems silly to me. > > There is no legal category called “meeting with Russians”. A meeting with Russians could be legally problematic or not, depending on which Russians and what the purpose of the meeting was, and other matters of that sort. It’s a big problem when you failed to register as a foreign agent until well after the fact. Goes to intent. They’ve got Manafort by the short-and-curlies at the very least. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1919 "2017-08-15T16:44:25Z")
The next step is to see what Manafort has on Trump, and who else he has something on. I’ll guess it won’t take much for Mueller to turn him. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1920 "2017-08-15T16:51:55Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The next step is to see what Manafort has on Trump, and who else he has something on. I’ll guess it won’t take much for Mueller to turn him. Mueller could let Ukraine take him and try him for his accused crimes there. And I highly suspect Paulie would rather that not end up happening. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1921 "2017-08-15T16:53:52Z")
> [@GrandWino](#): > > Mueller could let Ukraine take him and try him for his accused crimes there. And I highly suspect Paulie would rather that not end up happening. Ukraine has no extradition treaty with the United States. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1922 "2017-08-15T17:19:35Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Ukraine has no extradition treaty with the United States. Doesn’t mean he won’t end up there. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799/1923 "2017-08-15T17:20:59Z")
> [@GrandWino](#): > > Doesn’t mean he won’t end up there. How would that work, exactly? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799.md?page=95) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians-according-to-us-officials/782799.md?page=97)