# Trump backs plan that would curb legal immigration **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 2, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651 "2017-08-02T20:58:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/181 "2017-08-04T23:19:25Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s telling? Oh no!!! > > All communication is telling.:rolleyes: > > Your implication that any constraints on immigration is somehow bad should be supported by more than a weak appeal to emotion. The evidence shown from post #147 points at this proposal from Trump and the Republicans in congress to be based on **emotions** with a weak patina of “serious research”. Really, basing a bill on the dictates of hate groups is not a convincing argument. > **[How The Media Elevated Anti-Immigrant Nativist Groups](https://www.mediamatters.org/new-york-times/how-media-elevated-anti-immigrant-nativist-groups)** > > Throughout 2016, media outlets were complicit in mainstreaming the “nativist lobby,” made up of the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), Center for Immigration Studies (CIS), and NumbersUSA, groups with ties to white supremacists whose... ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/182 "2017-08-04T23:21:12Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You mean, like an appeal to humanity and decency? From a strictly rational point of view, how are they to be distinguished from “emotions”? I guess they aren’t. Yours is just another weak appeal to emotions. ETA: fuck that ‘have you no decency?’ bullshit. Has Canada no decency? Of course they do, but ‘decency’ != ‘no requirements / limits on immigration’ ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/183 "2017-08-04T23:21:56Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You mean, like an appeal to humanity and decency? From a strictly rational point of view, how are they to be distinguished from “emotions”? Appeal to humanity and decency? You haven’t established that your point of view satisfies any of that. Just typing compassion and decency accomplishes nothing. “X is compassion incarnate!” is not really a compelling rational argument for X. Obviously, appealing to the reptile emotional brain does work. But please don’t confuse it for rational thought. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/184 "2017-08-04T23:26:13Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The evidence shown from post #147 points at this proposal from Trump and the Republicans in congress to be based on **emotions** with a weak patina of “serious research”. > > Really, basing a bill on the dictates of hate groups is not a convincing argument. > > [https://www.mediamatters.org/research/2016/12/28/how-media-elevated-anti-immigrant-nativist-groups/214790](https://www.mediamatters.org/research/2016/12/28/how-media-elevated-anti-immigrant-nativist-groups/214790) I’m really curious here: do you believe Canada’s immigration rules are “based on emotions with a weak patina of ‘serious research’”? ETA: and why the hell do you believe the bill is ‘based on the dictates’ of CIS? Did CIS recommend a weighting system somewhere? Or did you misinterpret ‘used a couple of lines from one of their studies in a White House press release’ with ‘dictating the basis of the bill’? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/185 "2017-08-04T23:27:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You mean, like an appeal to humanity and decency? From a strictly rational point of view, how are they to be distinguished from “emotions”? As seen in the last 3 replies, some do not care indeed if the emotions used for the flawed research Trump and others are using to justify the change are coming from the worst angels of their nature of the current rulers of the Republican party. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/186 "2017-08-04T23:32:36Z")
I endeavor to be a reasonable man, and a rational man only so far as that is useful. Rationalism is a hammer to be employed where it fits, and set aside where it does not. I much admire a well-made hammer, I don’t sing about it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/187 "2017-08-04T23:48:28Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m really curious here: do you believe Canada’s immigration rules are “based on emotions with a weak patina of ‘serious research’”? > > ETA: and why the hell do you believe the bill is ‘based on the dictates’ of CIS? Did CIS recommend a weighting system somewhere? Or did you misinterpret ‘used a couple of lines from one of their studies in a White House press release’ with ‘dictating the basis of the bill’? I don’t believe, _I know_ what was reported, we already do know that Trump relies on cranks for information (Alex Jones) and for a guy that does think that his genes made him rich and he and his family then are entitled to what they are getting what CIS and others reported is the beesnees. > **[Trump Making ‘Nativist’ Group’s Wish List a Reality](http://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-making-nativist-groups-wish-list-a-reality)** > > Trump’s immigration policy appears to be guided by a wish list produced last year by a far-right group that has spent most of its existence on the fringe. > [@](#): > > Trump Making ‘Nativist’ Group’s Wish List a Reality > > On April 11, 2016, a tiny think tank with a bland name published a 79-point wish list. The list garnered virtually no media coverage, and in the 11 months since its publication has been largely ignored—except, apparently, by the White House. > > Today, Donald Trump seems to be working through it as he rolls out his immigration policy. A number of the 79 items on the list composed by the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS), have either been implemented or shown up in leaked draft proposals from the administration. It’s a course of events that has that think tank cautiously exultant and has immigrants’ rights activists anxious and disturbed. > [@](#): > > These three groups share a co-founder: John Tanton, a population control activist who flirted with racist pseudo-science, supported Planned Parenthood, and argued that immigration and population growth were bad for the environment. Immigrants’ rights advocates argue that the groups are covertly white supremacist and motivated by animus towards people of color. These groups, meanwhile, argue that activists who support immigrants’ rights are secretly in the pocket of corporate interests looking to drive down wages by bringing in immigrants willing to work for less than native-born Americans. > > David Leopold, who formerly headed AILA, told The Daily Beast he found CIS’s invitation unsettling. > > “I don’t know what the Center for Immigration Studies would be doing there honestly,” he said. “I don’t know why they would be there. What business do they have there? Do they represent people in proceedings? What business does Mark Krikorian have at the ICE liaison committee meeting?” > > And Frank Sharry, who heads the activist group America’s Voice, said he shared those concerns and found CIS’s invitation “very disturbing.” > > “You have this nativist cabal that has been on the outside looking in for 25 years and now they’re on the inside looking out, and they’re going to have outsized influence,” he said. “In fact, you could say that these groups—CIS and their fellow travelers—are going to own what the Trump administration does on immigration and refugee policy. I’m sure that makes them very happy. I think it should make the country alarmed.” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/188 "2017-08-04T23:59:03Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I don’t believe, _I know_ what was reported, we already do know that Trump relies on cranks for information (Alex Jones) and for a guy that does think that his genes made him rich and he and his family then are entitled to what they are getting what CIS and others reported is the beesnees. > > [Trump Making ‘Nativist’ Group’s Wish List a Reality](http://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-making-nativist-groups-wish-list-a-reality) Earlier you said “Really, basing a bill on the dictates of hate groups is not a convincing argument.” Setting aside, for the moment, the bullshit ‘hate group’ claim, **what evidence is there that this bill, the RAISE Act proposed by Senator Cotton, was ‘[based] on the dictates’ of CIS?** I don’t see any in the portion of the Daily Beast you quoted. Did I miss it, or is it not there? It seems unlikely given that the RAISE Act was just recently introduced and your cite is from March, but I want to give you another chance to support your claim before I dismiss it as garbage, **GIGO**. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/189 "2017-08-05T00:08:45Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > As seen in the last 3 replies, some do not care indeed if the emotions used for the flawed research Trump and others are using to justify the change are coming from the worst angels of their nature of the current rulers of the Republican party. Can you try to write that coherently? I’m not sure what you are trying to say. You don’t even understand what you are arguing against. I’m merely stating that constraints on immigration are not necessarily intrinsically EVIL!! What’s so difficult about actually addressing a statement versus an imaginary straw man? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/190 "2017-08-05T00:19:58Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Can you try to write that coherently? I’m not sure what you are trying to say. > > You don’t even understand what you are arguing against. I’m merely stating that constraints on immigration are not necessarily intrinsically EVIL!! > > What’s so difficult about actually addressing a statement versus an imaginary straw man? Again, you were the one claiming that there was o compelling argument from **elucidator** , trouble is that then one should see if your side, or Trump, really has a compelling one then. It was just mostly a bill based on emotions too, and of the most reprehensible kind. IOW: less compelling emotional points to use as arguments in this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/191 "2017-08-05T00:31:52Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Earlier you said “Really, basing a bill on the dictates of hate groups is not a convincing argument.” Setting aside, for the moment, the bullshit ‘hate group’ claim, **what evidence is there that this bill, the RAISE Act proposed by Senator Cotton, was ‘[based] on the dictates’ of CIS?** I don’t see any in the portion of the Daily Beast you quoted. Did I miss it, or is it not there? > > It seems unlikely given that the RAISE Act was just recently introduced and your cite is from March, but I want to give you another chance to support your claim before I dismiss it as garbage, **GIGO**. It is not garbage, it was not only The Daily Beast the ones that noted how the influence of groups like CIS (and one should note here that the basic point of CIS and Trump made about how much immigrants use welfare to be poppycock should had been enough to realize that you should stop supporting this particular effort). > **[Even immigration 'hawks' say a Trump-backed bill to limit legal immigration...](https://aebw6phkml.execute-api.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/prod/univision/univision-news/immigration/even-immigration-hawks-say-a-trump-backed-bill-to-limit-legal-immigration-cant-pass)** > > President Donald Trump is pushing legislation by Senators Tom Cotton and David Perdue, but leading Republicans see the measure as counterproductive. > [@](#): > > The bill seeks to move towards a merit-based approach, reshaping the entire immigration system. It would qualify immigrants through a point system that gives priority to those with better English-language skills, education levels and job skills. It would also cut in half the number of green cards granted each year, currently around 1 million. > > “This would be the most significant reform to the immigration system in half a century,” said Trump. “It is a historic and very vital proposal.” > > But even those in favor of the legislation believe it’s unlikely to pass. The bill is opposed by a number of Republicans. > > "It’s just the first step,” Mark Krikorian, the director of the Center for Immigration Studies, told Univision. A think tank, CIS provides anti-immigration research to members of Congress to help them draft legislation. And before you dismiss what I pointed out you should realize that I was not saying that this particular effort was coming from CIS, it was Lance Turbo the one that pointed that “The numbers from the press release appear to come from a a study from the Center for Immigration Studies.” > **[Trump Overstates Impact of Immigration Bill - FactCheck.org](https://www.factcheck.org/2017/08/trump-overstates-impact-immigration-bill/)** > > President Donald Trump is wrong on two fronts when he claims that the RAISE Act "prevents ... new immigrants from collecting welfare." ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/192 "2017-08-05T00:34:59Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I can’t really speak for them, but I think they’d say that the goal is less about ‘make it difficult’ and more about ‘make sure that those who do come here can support themselves’. They could easily design a policy to take in a higher number of people that could “support themselves” but they just seem to want less immigrants, legal or otherwise. It just exposes the effing LIE so many conservatives liked to tell about them being in favor of LEGAL immigrants. That’s not ALL, they are for though, legal AND less common. ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/193 "2017-08-05T01:05:26Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > It seems to me that there are many cities, like Detroit, with declining populations. Meanwhile, there are thousands of refugees from places like Syria who are desperate to improve their situation. I think these refugees should be permitted to settle (in large numbers), if they move to these underpopulated cities. It would go a long way to revitalizing decaying parts of the country. At the beginning they will require some assistance, but I think they will be a net positive ultimately. I don’t think importing Syria en masse to the US is a sensible solution. There is a large language barrier, skills gap, and culture gap. One of the reasons the Muslim population in the US does so well and tends to be more liberal than other western nations is because we were more selective and did not open the flood gates. At least our neighbors to the south largely share a religious cultural background. Low skills, low English language knowledge, lower cultural compatibility equals a trifecta of failure, and the idea that we should just go full Merkel and open the flood gates to that is insane. Don’t make me join Ditka, I hate aligning with conservatives on issues. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/194 "2017-08-05T01:23:53Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It seems off topic but an argument could be made that proper nutrition for children is vital to the well being of the nation. Especially since we have vast food surpluses. Of course child nutrition is important. But it does not automatically follow that the government should provide it. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/195 "2017-08-05T03:30:30Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Of course child nutrition is important. > > But it does not automatically follow that the government should provide it. I don’t think it’s automatically a given either. I think that child nutrition being important, poor parenting being common, and food being vastly abundant utilization of the government to get food to those who need it and can’t really provide for themselves is a reasonable measure. Ideally society would be structured where parents or other family would step up and meet their obligations. Until that point, I’d rather children not suffer from malnutrition. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/196 "2017-08-05T03:33:45Z")
> [@treis](#): > > The non-refugee poor can’t immigrate today so this bill isn’t a change one way or another for them. You really need to cite your assertions. As it happens, you’re wrong. [https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/how-united-states-immigration-system-works](https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/how-united-states-immigration-system-works) I’ll let you figure out how you’re wrong. > [@](#): > > As I said before, there is wide agreement that the current process is broken. This is a reasonable legislative starting point and in normal times it would be more likely than not to end in a change to the law. Obviously we are not in normal times. Democrats have no inclination to work with Trump on anything and Republicans aren’t cohesive enough on this issue to pass it themselves. Once again an uncited assertion. Substantiate that ‘wide agreement,’ please. Sounds very much like “Many people are saying” to me. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/197 "2017-08-05T03:40:30Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I guess they aren’t. Yours is just another weak appeal to emotions. > > ETA: fuck that ‘have you no decency?’ bullshit. Has Canada no decency? Of course they do, but ‘decency’ != ‘no requirements / limits on immigration’ Wait, we have no limits on immigration? Not close, nor a cigar. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/198 "2017-08-05T04:05:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I endeavor to be a reasonable man, and a rational man only so far as that is useful. Rationalism is a hammer to be employed where it fits, and set aside where it does not. I much admire a well-made hammer, I don’t sing about it. With a limited resource (legal immigration) and significant demand (applicants to immigrate), the hammer must be employed. Which is why this proposal is modeled after the highly-touted, points-based immigration systems of Canada and Australia. That being said, English proficiency should be tuned down by about 2-3 points in its weighting and professional education should be tuned upwards about the same. But this proposal is not miles off of a very solid foundation to reforming the immigration system. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/199 "2017-08-05T04:50:39Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > It is not garbage, it was not only The Daily Beast the ones that noted how the influence of groups like CIS (and one should note here that the basic point of CIS and Trump made about how much immigrants use welfare to be poppycock should had been enough to realize that you should stop supporting this particular effort). Trump being a liar and flirting with unsavorable groups doesn’t automatically make everything he supports bad. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/200 "2017-08-05T04:54:33Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Which is why this proposal is modeled after the highly-touted, points-based immigration systems of Canada and Australia. Nonsense. It’s a clear as day attempt to sneak “English as the national language” in by a back door. Seriously. I’m still waiting for someone to even point to a PROBLEM with current legal immigration that needs fixing. This whole proposal is just GOP racism hiding in a mask of…well, not really anything. It’s pretty straightforward. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651.md?page=11)