# Trump backs plan that would curb legal immigration **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 2, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651 "2017-08-02T20:58:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/81 "2017-08-03T17:30:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Huh? 12 is significantly higher than 7. What’s my error? 12 is not way way above 7 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/82 "2017-08-03T17:33:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Oh come on. Can you look at those points and reasonably characterize it as valuing great education over great English? That’s the goalposts – that this point system very clearly prioritizes English ability over education, for the vast majority of potential immigrants, when IMO that’s totally nuts if the goal is to minimize the potential burden of future immigrants. > > I deeply and humbly apologize if you found anything I said earlier confusing. I’m far from a perfect human and, as always, I will strive to be a better person and a better poster. > > Do you have an opinion on this issue, and this point system? I’m interested in that, if you have one. > > By the way, the max points you can get for English is 12, not 11. But that’s okay – that you got that wrong is no big deal and doesn’t detract from this discussion in any significant way. OK, you’re right about 12 being the max points for English. For some reason I stopped at 90th percentile. But please, tell us exactly which categories you are talking about and exactly how many points you get. It doesn’t make much sense to argue about qualitative statements when the quantitative evaluation is readily available. I would probably allocate the points a bit differently, but I consider this to be Trump’s opening position, and that we (Congress) will then negotiate from there. If a bill gets passed, I doubt it will have this exact point system, so let’s see what Congress proposes. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/83 "2017-08-03T17:34:24Z")
> [@treis](#): > > 12 is not way way above 7 Cite? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/84 "2017-08-03T17:37:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, you’re right about 12 being the max points for English. For some reason I stopped at 90th percentile. But please, tell us exactly which categories you are talking about and exactly how many points you get. It doesn’t make much sense to argue about qualitative statements when the quantitative evaluation is readily available. > > I would probably allocate the points a bit differently, but I consider this to be Trump’s opening position, and that we (Congress) will then negotiate from there. If a bill gets passed, I doubt it will have this exact point system, so let’s see what Congress proposes. For all categories except a US-school doctorate/professional degree (and thus the vast majority of potential immigrants), immigrants can get more points by having perfect English than having a very good education. This means that the WH is either incompetent (and meant to prioritize education above perfect English for almost all immigrants, but clearly failed) or really does value perfect English above education for almost all immigrants, which IMO indicates bigotry, and little actual concern for whether immigrants might be a burden on our systems. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/85 "2017-08-03T17:40:17Z")
[He’s right.](http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/37200/37217/frac_07-12_37217_lg.gif) ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/86 "2017-08-03T17:43:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Cite? LOL Oh dear > [@John Mace](#): > > I would probably allocate the points a bit differently, but I consider this to be Trump’s opening position, and that we (Congress) will then negotiate from there. If a bill gets passed, I doubt it will have this exact point system, so let’s see what Congress proposes. It’s hard to tell what the different percentiles actually mean in terms of ability. This page shows raw TOEFL numbers and their percentile: > **[What's Your TOEFL Percentile?](https://magoosh.com/toefl/whats-your-toefl-percentile/)** > > You’ve just taken the TOEFL (or a TOEFL practice test), and you’ve received a score in the form of a number from 0 – 120. But what does this number mean? How does this score compare to everyone else’s score? That’s where score percentiles come... 60th percentile is a score of 88. For comparison’s sake, universities in the US have a minimum score requirement of between 80 and 100. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/87 "2017-08-03T17:46:14Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > …by enacting provisions which will lead greater percentage of brown and yellow immigration while keeping out the Nordic stock? I never suggested for a moment that they had thought this out carefully. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/88 "2017-08-03T17:46:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > For all categories except a US-school doctorate/professional degree (and thus the vast majority of potential immigrants), immigrants can get more points by having perfect English than having a very good education. Not really. How many foreigners have a great education (i.e., PhD) but speak no English? Especially when we are talking about STEM fields. While it may be true that you can find the odd person who fits your characterization, it ignores actual reality. > [@](#): > > This means that the WH is either incompetent We know that already. > [@](#): > > (and meant to prioritize education above perfect English for almost all immigrants, but clearly failed) or really does value perfect English above education for almost all immigrants, which IMO indicates bigotry, and little actual concern for whether immigrants might be a burden on our systems. It might indicate bigotry, but if you look at the pool of proficient English speakers who want to come to the US, it’s unclear to me that most of them are NOT of the brown persuasion. India, Pakistan, The Philippines, Taiwan, Korea, and even China to a large extent produces lots and lots of English speakers who want to come to the US. Britain might produce a lot of English speakers, but not so many that want to come to the US. Having said that, I certainly agree that the point system for fluency in English should be adjusted down. But not eliminated. So, cut it by 2/3 or 1/2 and we’re pretty good. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/89 "2017-08-03T17:47:22Z")
> [@treis](#): > > It’s hard to tell what the different percentiles actually mean in terms of ability. This page shows raw TOEFL numbers and their percentile: > > [What's Your TOEFL Percentile? - Magoosh Blog – TOEFL®️ Test](https://magoosh.com/toefl/2015/whats-your-toefl-percentile/) > > 60th percentile is a score of 88. For comparison’s sake, universities in the US have a minimum score requirement of between 80 and 100. This means that the WH proposal would value an English-fluent immigrant without even a high school diploma over a foreign-educated obstetrician with English skills more than good enough to get into US universities, though below the 60% cutoff. Is anyone willing to defend that proposal? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/90 "2017-08-03T17:48:24Z")
Fluent english is a skill people can learn. This plan will incentive smart people to improve their english if they hope to immigrate. People who speak english better make more money and are more productive. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/91 "2017-08-03T17:50:49Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not really. How many foreigners have a great education (i.e., PhD) but speak no English? Especially when we are talking about STEM fields. While it may be true that you can find the odd person who fits your characterization, it ignores actual reality. But it’s not “no english” – it’s “below 60 percentile proficiency”, which as was just linked can be good enough to get into US universities. Thus this policy values a foreign obstetrician with decent but not perfect English (good enough to get into US universities) less than an English-fluent person with no HS diploma at all. > [@](#): > > It might indicate bigotry, but if you look at the pool of proficient English speakers who want to come to the US, it’s unclear to me that most of them are NOT of the brown persuasion. India, Pakistan, The Philippines, Taiwan, Korea, and even China to a large extent produces lots and lots of English speakers who want to come to the US. Britain might produce a lot of English speakers, but not so many that want to come to the US. But if those English speakers are just decent with English, and score under the 60 percentile (even if they’re good enough to get into US schools), then they get no points at all for their English. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/92 "2017-08-03T17:50:52Z")
If you look at Canada as a comparison, the minimum number of points you get for language is 16 and the maximum is 28. To get the minimum, Those that do not meet that minimum level are not eligible to apply. For comparison, a bachelor’s degree gets you 22 points. The full list of education points: > [@](#): > > University degree at the Doctoral (PhD) level or equal 25 points > University degree at the Master’s level or equal OR University level entry-to-practice professional degree (or equal). Occupation related to the degree must be: > NOC 2011 Skill Level A, and > licensed by a provincial regulatory body > Note: Degree program must be in one of these fields of study: Medicine, Veterinary Medicine, Dentistry, Podiatry, Optometry, Law, Chiropractic Medicine, or Pharmacy. > 23 points > Two or more Canadian post-secondary degrees or diplomas or equal (at least one must be for a program of at least three years) 22 points > Canadian post-secondary degree or diploma for a program of three years or longer, or equal 21 points > Canadian post-secondary degree or diploma for a two-year program, or equal 19 points > Canadian post-secondary degree or diploma for a one-year program, or equal 15 points > Canadian high school diploma, or equal 5 points ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/93 "2017-08-03T17:52:24Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Fluent english is a skill people can learn. This plan will incentive smart people to improve their english if they hope to immigrate. People who speak english better make more money and are more productive. Do you have a cite that fluent English speakers with no diploma make more money than foreign-educated M.D.s with decent but not fluent English? Do you really believe that we should prioritize the former over the latter? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/94 "2017-08-03T17:53:57Z")
> [@treis](#): > > If you look at Canada as a comparison, the minimum number of points you get for language is 16 and the maximum is 28. To get the minimum, Those that do not meet that minimum level are not eligible to apply. For comparison, a bachelor’s degree gets you 22 points. > > The full list of education points: What are the Canadian point values for various levels of language ability? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/95 "2017-08-03T17:56:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s also pretty meaningless, since the only thing this tells us is that immigrants tend to live in poorer neighborhoods (and thus send their kids to schools with subsidy programs), which should be no surprise whatsoever. Are a Doctor and her husband the engineer likely to live in a poor neighborhood? Unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/96 "2017-08-03T17:57:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you have a cite that fluent English speakers with no diploma make more money than foreign-educated M.D.s with decent but not fluent English? Do you really believe that we should prioritize the former over the latter? Is the foreign educated MD educated at a med school that is certified by the US, and so can practice medicine in the US or is the MD from the University of Outer Nowhereistan? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/97 "2017-08-03T17:57:36Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Are a Doctor and her husband the engineer likely to live in a poor neighborhood? Unlikely. If they’re immigrants, they’re more likely to live in an immigrant community with other folks from their country/region. Those are often poorer neighborhoods, in my understanding. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/98 "2017-08-03T17:59:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is the foreign educated MD educated at a med school that is certified by the US, and so can practice medicine in the US or is the MD from the University of Outer Nowhereistan? Let’s assume that the foreign educate MD went to the very best foreign school, which (unless I’m reading the cite about points incorrectly) still gets fewer points than perfect English. I still think you’re avoiding the substance of my argument, and as a personal favor to me could you try to address it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/99 "2017-08-03T18:02:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But it’s not “no english” – it’s “below 60 percentile proficiency”, which as was just linked can be good enough to get into US universities. Thus this policy values a foreign obstetrician with decent but not perfect English (good enough to get into US universities) less than an English-fluent person with no HS diploma at all. You said “for all categories”. That would include the “no English” category, no? > [@](#): > > I still think you’re avoiding the substance of my argument, and as a personal favor to me could you try to address it? I’m having trouble understanding your argument because you are being imprecise in your categorizations and making some rather sweeping statements. I’m happy to address your argument as soon as you clearly state what it is. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/100 "2017-08-03T18:06:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You said “for all categories”. That would include the “no English” category, no? This point system lumps together “no English” with “decent English” up to the 60 percentile score. Thus this policy values a foreign obstetrician with decent (say, 59 percentile on the English test) but not perfect English (good enough to get into US universities – as linked upthread, 60% is about 88 on the TOEFL, and US universities require an 80 on the TOEFL) less than an English-fluent person with no HS diploma at all. Isn’t that crazy, or do you think that’s at all reasonable? Is there some part of this position that isn’t clearly stated? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651.md?page=6)