# Trump backs plan that would curb legal immigration **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 2, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651 "2017-08-02T20:58:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/141 "2017-08-03T22:41:42Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Since open borders shouldn’t be the norm, some filters need to be chosen. “Legal immigration.” That’s the subject. Not open borders. Why are some legal immigrants more equal than other legal immigrants? What? Unskilled legal immigrant’s dreams don’t count because they don’t have a million dollar stake to get them going? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/142 "2017-08-03T22:51:10Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > “Legal immigration.” That’s the subject. Not open borders. Why are some legal immigrants more equal than other legal immigrants? What? Unskilled legal immigrant’s dreams don’t count because they don’t have a million dollar stake to get them going? At least part of the answer seems to be that unskilled legal immigrants are less likely to support themselves and more likely to end up burdening our taxpayers via various welfare programs than skilled, educated, English-proficient ones that have a job lined up already. America has two competing tendencies here: On the one hand, we want to help others, and one way we can do that is allowing them to immigrate here, even if they don’t seem terribly likely to succeed. It’s quite likely that even a mediocre life in America is better than whatever shithole they’re leaving behind to come here. On the other hand, there’s definitely some hard-nosed self-interest at play, and in that vein, it’s not unreasonable to be more welcoming to immigrants that are more likely to “succeed” than those that aren’t. Canada does it too, and I’m not going to condemn them as selfish pricks for doing so. It seems like a reasonable approach for first-world countries with generous public assistance programs to take. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/143 "2017-08-03T23:39:16Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > “Legal immigration.” That’s the subject. Not open borders. Why are some legal immigrants more equal than other legal immigrants? What? Unskilled legal immigrant’s dreams don’t count because they don’t have a million dollar stake to get them going? I’m not opposed to a certain number of unskilled immigrants entering the nation each year. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/144 "2017-08-04T00:06:04Z")
How… American of you. (Blows kazoo.) ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/145 "2017-08-04T00:34:41Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > 1. ‘Social science’ is inherently subjective. Polls about anything but ‘the election (referendum etc) is next month which way you are going to vote’ are subjective. There’s room for disagreement about what extent the immigration issue boosted Trump, but in general it’s an elephant in the room some people don’t like, IMO. > > 2. But here you change course to the usual moralizing about other people’s opinions on immigration, rather than in any way showing my statement wasn’t true. > > 3. I didn’t say anything about particular Trump adviser’s motives. I said the policy itself, skills focus in legal immigration, is a good idea IMO, and that I didn’t think it was motivated by ‘racism’ in case of the countries which have adopted it. Your response is really pretty much off point all around. Science is busted, moral criticisms are irrelevant, and all that matters is that this policy vaguely resembles Canada’s in irrelevant ways. Hail Trump! ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/146 "2017-08-04T01:31:30Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > How… American of you. (Blows kazoo.) Great contribution.:rolleyes: You think we should have any constraints? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/147 "2017-08-04T02:00:52Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > I don’t think anyone has mentioned it yet but I may have missed it. The numbers from the press release appear to come from a a study from the [Center for Immigration Studies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Immigration_Studies). They were founded by an advocate of eugenics in the 80’s and have a less than stellar reputation to this day. Not surprising because Trump does confuse bigoted pseudo science with science. > **[Trump nominee Sam Clovis blasted progressives as ‘race traders’ and ‘race...](https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/02/politics/kfile-sam-clovis-blog-posts/index.html)** > > Sam Clovis, President Donald Trump’s nominee to be the Department of Agriculture’s chief scientist, maintained a now-defunct blog for years in which he accused progressives of “enslaving” minorities, called black leaders “race traders,” and labeled... > [@](#): > > Sam Clovis, President Donald Trump’s nominee to be the Department of Agriculture’s chief scientist, maintained a now-defunct blog for years in which he accused progressives of “enslaving” minorities, called black leaders “race traders,” and labeled former President Barack Obama a “Maoist” with “communist” roots. > Clovis, a long-time Iowa political activist and former economics professor, wrote the blog posts on the now-deleted website for his radio show “Impact with Clovis,” which aired for several years on Sioux City KSCJ. Copies of the show are not available online, but the blog is archived on The Internet Archive Wayback Machine. Most of the available blog posts are from 2011 and 2012. > Trump’s nomination of Clovis, a fervent supporter of Trump during the presidential campaign, has drawn criticism from Senate Democrats and climate activists, who have attacked his lack of scientific credentials and skepticism of climate science. > > Clovis is currently serving as the senior White House adviser to the USDA, but as his old blog posts highlight, his background is strongly rooted in the politics of conservative talk radio. His nomination requires Senate confirmation. > > Clovis did not respond to an email from CNN’s KFile requesting comment. A spokesperson for the USDA said, "Dr. Clovis is a proud conservative and a proud American. All of his reporting either on the air or in writing over the course of his career has been based on solid research and data. He is after all an academic. > > A spokesperson for the White House did not return a request for comment. > In his writings, Clovis directed most of his ire at then-President Obama and the progressive movement. > > In a post from September 2011, Clovis wrote in reference to Obama, “He was brought up by socialists to be a socialist. His associations were socialists or worse, criminal dissidents who were bent on overthrowing the government of the United States. He has no experience at anything other than race baiting and race trading as a community organizer.” > The month before, Clovis said the 2012 Republican primary candidates needed to call out progressives for what they were — “liars, race traders and race ‘traitors.’” ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/148 "2017-08-04T02:09:54Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > And yes, they are wrong about school lunch being welfare, just as wrong as if they said chalkboards and soccer balls for gym class were welfare. School lunch is not the same as chalkboards. Since when is it the responsibility of schools to provide free lunches, breakfasts, and even meals in the summertime? Feeding children is the responsibility of the two parents. Full stop. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/149 "2017-08-04T02:22:06Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > School lunch is not the same as chalkboards. Since when is it the responsibility of schools to provide free lunches, breakfasts, and even meals in the summertime? I dunno. Do we have a date for the invention of human compassion? ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/150 "2017-08-04T02:53:28Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I dunno. Do we have a date for the invention of human compassion? We have a mid-November 2016 date for its death, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/151 "2017-08-04T04:59:43Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Not really. Virtually everyone agrees that our immigration system is broken. The one Trump proposes is far better. Even if it is not perfect. How? How is a system that lets in fewer legal immigrants better? The way in which the system is broken is that it puts too many restrictions on immigrants while our country clearly needs the unskilled laborers who immigrate here illegally. If they didn’t, then the business wouldn’t keep hiring them. The only way to fix the system is to make it where all the immigrants we need can get here legally. Which means doing the literal opposite of what Trump’s system does. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/152 "2017-08-04T05:03:33Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I dunno. Do we have a date for the invention of human compassion? When I was in high school, some kids did get “free” lunches, but it wasn’t EVERYONE in the school. All others paid cash, or brought their own. And there was no breakfast at all, and the schools weren’t open for lunch in the summer. Sometimes liberals take compassion to the extreme. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/153 "2017-08-04T05:09:11Z")
> [@treis](#): > > LOL Oh dear 12 is 12/7 = 171.4%. So it’s 71.4% higher than 12. That is way bigger. LOL is not a substitute for an argument, and I’m not sure why so many people try it. I’m saddened that this 4chan tactic has reached this messageboard. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/154 "2017-08-04T05:24:31Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Not really. Virtually everyone agrees that our immigration system is broken. The one Trump proposes is far better. Even if it is not perfect. Yes, really. You see, there’s this little thing called Congress passing it. In CA, the bluest of blue states, for example, the vast majority of congressional districts relying on agriculture for the majority of their economies are red. And in general, similar districts across the country that are affected by this issue are also red. And then there’s the Senate. All it takes is three Republican Senators, because I guarantee you no one caucusing with the Democrats will vote for it. Crickets. Zip. Zero. Nada. And there will be a number of Republicans under pressure from constituents over this. So, to reiterate, yeah, really. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/155 "2017-08-04T05:31:30Z")
Dangit, missed the edit window. I also don’t agree that cutting out the poor from any chance of immigrating here (i.e. refugees) is better at all. It’s spitting in the face of American ethics. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/156 "2017-08-04T05:37:04Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > “Legal immigration.” That’s the subject. Not open borders. Why are some legal immigrants more equal than other legal immigrants? What? Unskilled legal immigrant’s dreams don’t count because they don’t have a million dollar stake to get them going? They’re more likely to be or become good little conservatives. Win-win (for the Republicans). ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/157 "2017-08-04T06:04:21Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Yes, really. You see, there’s this little thing called Congress passing it. In CA, the bluest of blue states, for example, the vast majority of congressional districts relying on agriculture for the majority of their economies are red. And in general, similar districts across the country that are affected by this issue are also red. > > And then there’s the Senate. All it takes is three Republican Senators, because I guarantee you no one caucusing with the Democrats will vote for it. Crickets. Zip. Zero. Nada. And there will be a number of Republicans under pressure from constituents over this. > > So, to reiterate, yeah, really. I noted many times before at how the same moves were attempted by the Republicans in California. Back then Pete Wilson won with hate, but in a few years the targets of that hate had united because they realized that the Republicans were not their friends. It seems that the Republicans do know that this can give them still victories in the short run, but in the long run the result is that not only minorities come to realize how fake the Republican rhetoric is about the immigrants. IMHO a lot of the ones that are Republicans and minorities or involved with immigrants needed to find by personal experience how misleading the Republican arguments are when families are separated or remain separated thanks to their policies. Republicans never seem to get how counterproductive that is when citizens grow up and remember how their families were treated and not surprisingly become life long Democrats. > **[The dark, complex history of Trump's model for his mass deportation plan](https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-trump-deportation-20151113-story.html)** > > Esteban Torres was 3 years old when his father was sent back to Mexico by U.S. immigration authorities. One would hope that Republicans would wake up. I think that most of them will go for the hate, but I do hope like you that a good number will not want to join the circular firing squad. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/158 "2017-08-04T06:20:07Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > How? How is a system that lets in fewer legal immigrants better? The way in which the system is broken is that it puts too many restrictions on immigrants while our country clearly needs the unskilled laborers who immigrate here illegally. If they didn’t, then the business wouldn’t keep hiring them. > > The only way to fix the system is to make it where all the immigrants we need can get here legally. Which means doing the literal opposite of what Trump’s system does. Why do we need unskilled illegal labor if we don’t have real full employment? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/159 "2017-08-04T06:22:17Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > When I was in high school, some kids did get “free” lunches, but it wasn’t EVERYONE in the school. All others paid cash, or brought their own. And there was no breakfast at all, and the schools weren’t open for lunch in the summer. > > Sometimes liberals take compassion to the extreme. It seems off topic but an argument could be made that proper nutrition for children is vital to the well being of the nation. Especially since we have vast food surpluses. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651/160 "2017-08-04T08:31:50Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Why do we need unskilled illegal labor if we don’t have real full employment? It isn’t about what we need. It’s about what we’re willing to offer. You’ve got your immigration priorities backwards. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-backs-plan-that-would-curb-legal-immigration/792651.md?page=9)