# Trump calls Pakistan, Taiwan and other world leaders to chat **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 3, 2016, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-calls-pakistan-taiwan-and-other-world-leaders-to-chat/773693 "2016-12-03T01:27:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-calls-pakistan-taiwan-and-other-world-leaders-to-chat/773693/41 "2016-12-03T16:57:56Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > I am having trouble finding an updated list but I believe that the following countries still recognize the Republic of China (in Taiwan): > Burkina Faso > Swaziland > Kiribati > Marshall Islands > Nauru > Palau > Solomon Islands > Tuvalu Cool, now why don’t you make a list of countries that recognize Taiwan’s independence? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-calls-pakistan-taiwan-and-other-world-leaders-to-chat/773693/42 "2016-12-03T17:02:18Z")
“Recognize” carries that implication. Empty posturing is foolish, we may all agree. Empty posturing that avoids bloodshed is another matter all together. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-calls-pakistan-taiwan-and-other-world-leaders-to-chat/773693/43 "2016-12-03T17:07:50Z")
Trump supporters elected a “tough guy”. Expect more of this nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-calls-pakistan-taiwan-and-other-world-leaders-to-chat/773693/44 "2016-12-03T17:34:32Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > So, the situation here seems to be: > > For the last fifty years or so the US has been helping Taiwan retain its de facto independence by > a) promising Taiwan you’ll go to war for them if they get invaded, and There is no such promise. The 1979 Taiwan Relations Act is not a defense pact and there is no US commitment to defend Taiwan in the event of attack. > [@Aspidistra](#): > > And if he starts in with “well we all KNOW you guys are two separate countries how about you just act like it” in a public place … there goes plank (b). Maybe China still doesn’t invade but it won’t be thanks to any action of the US’s any more Many people are essentially advocating, “We shouldn’t tell the Emperor (in this instance, China) that he has no clothes on.” IOW, people are saying that Taiwan is for all intents and purposes a de facto country of its own, but for the sake of diplomatic niceties it should be pretended that it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-calls-pakistan-taiwan-and-other-world-leaders-to-chat/773693/45 "2016-12-03T17:40:56Z")
I thought Taiwan’s claim was that it was the ;legitimate Government of _all_ of China. Hence the name, Republic of China on Taiwan. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-calls-pakistan-taiwan-and-other-world-leaders-to-chat/773693/46 "2016-12-03T17:43:40Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I like how he casually told the British prime minister, “If you travel to the U.S., you should let me know”. As if she could make a casual, unofficial, last minute visit to the US. As opposed to a formal state visit planned over the course of months. Why not? Queen Elizabeth has done it. > [@](#): > > Queen Elizabeth II, a top breeder of thoroughbred horses in Britain, began a private six-day visit today to some of America’s noted stud farms. [http://www.nytimes.com/1984/10/08/us/queen-elizabeth-visiting-kentucky-horse-farms.html](http://www.nytimes.com/1984/10/08/us/queen-elizabeth-visiting-kentucky-horse-farms.html) > [@buddha\_david](#): > > Maybe I’m going against the grain but this is one of the boldest moves Trump has made so far. Enough of this bullshit pretending Taiwan’s still part of China, what are they gonna do about it? China’s economy entirely depends on the USA buying their crappy products and they know it. > > As for Kazakhstan, Pakistan, The Philippines, etc. oh wow it’s not like we’ve never been buddy-buddy with bloody dictators before. > [@Aspidistra](#): > > So, the situation here seems to be: > > For the last fifty years or so the US has been helping Taiwan retain its de facto independence by > a) promising Taiwan you’ll go to war for them if they get invaded, and > b) saving China’s face by keeping up the admitted farce that it’s not REALLY a separate country. > > Now you’ve got a president who doesn’t even keep his own promises, let alone somebody else’s. Farewell plank (a) > > And if he starts in with “well we all KNOW you guys are two separate countries how about you just act like it” in a public place … there goes plank (b). Maybe China still doesn’t invade but it won’t be thanks to any action of the US’s any more > > I hope to hell the Taiwanese president knows what she’s doing here, because sure as shit Trump doesn’t. A lot of people have forgotten that Taiwan is ALREADY independent. The government that is currently sitting in Taipei is the legitimate government of **all** of China. Just because the Communist rebels have been in power over the mainland for a long time doesn’t mean that their government is legitimate. Unfortunately, most governments around the world have become soft-headed and cowardly on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-calls-pakistan-taiwan-and-other-world-leaders-to-chat/773693/47 "2016-12-03T17:59:33Z")
Yes, it’s amazing what you can get away with when you have nukes. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-calls-pakistan-taiwan-and-other-world-leaders-to-chat/773693/48 "2016-12-03T18:02:07Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I thought Taiwan’s claim was that it was the ;legitimate Government of _all_ of China. Hence the name, Republic of China on Taiwan. It is, but at this point, that’s largely because the Chinese government are assholes. There’s a substantial group of Taiwanese, including the current Taiwanese government, who support a two-China government, but that throws the PRC into fits, so everybody’s forced to pretend that China and Taiwan are just one country because people don’t want to piss the Chinese off. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-calls-pakistan-taiwan-and-other-world-leaders-to-chat/773693/49 "2016-12-03T18:05:47Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I thought Taiwan’s claim was that it was the ;legitimate Government of _all_ of China. Hence the name, Republic of China on Taiwan. Yes, that’s the other farcical claim in the longstanding dispute. Taiwan claims all of China (although, of course, this is those diplomatic-speak things whereby everyone knows it’s fake) under the ROC. Which is a claim that should have been given up in the 1950s. Again, 99.999% of Taiwanese people don’t believe or assert that claim in sincerity, and I’m not sure the current DPP government even pays the lip service to it anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-calls-pakistan-taiwan-and-other-world-leaders-to-chat/773693/50 "2016-12-03T18:05:50Z")
China drew an aggressive line, Trump took a step across it, and the Chinese just sputtered in response. Small but clear win for Trump. Obama did something similar in meeting repeatedly with the Dalai Lama, resisting China’s attempt to set the terms for US engagement with a third party. Indeed, the Chinese reaction was even angrier about those. Interestingly, Trump taking the call also seems to fit Scott Adams’ thesis about the new CEO needing to make small but visible changes right away. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-calls-pakistan-taiwan-and-other-world-leaders-to-chat/773693/51 "2016-12-03T18:12:00Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > As for Kazakhstan, **Pakistan, The Philippines** , etc. oh wow it’s not like we’ve never been buddy-buddy with bloody dictators before. Dictator=/= government or countries you don’t currently like. ---
**Author:** ![ganthet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de0a6/32.png) [@ganthet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ganthet)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-calls-pakistan-taiwan-and-other-world-leaders-to-chat/773693/52 "2016-12-03T18:26:40Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > A lot of people have forgotten that Taiwan is ALREADY independent. The government that is currently sitting in Taipei is the legitimate government of **all** of China. > > Just because the Communist rebels have been in power over the mainland for a long time doesn’t mean that their government is legitimate. Unfortunately, most governments around the world have become soft-headed and cowardly on this issue. Time, for better or worse, has a way of creating its own legitimacy. The Kuomintang wasn’t really a fully elected government when it fled to Taiwan, and the party itself has mostly dropped this claim. No country recognizes the Republic of South Vietnam anymore. No country that recognizes Taiwan as the legitimate government of China does so on any ideological or principalled basis. They are just given “bribes”/financial incentives to do so from Taiwan, but take a big hit in losing out on any PRC financial assistance and trade deals. No country is willing to economcally hobble itself for some principalled cause that has no chance of prevailing. Even if the PRC is overthrown, the Kuomintang almost certainly isn’t going to be the leading contender on the Mainland for picking up the pieces. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-calls-pakistan-taiwan-and-other-world-leaders-to-chat/773693/53 "2016-12-03T19:03:40Z")
> [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](#): > > Cool, now why don’t you make a list of countries that recognize Taiwan’s independence? Taiwan doesn’t claim it’s an independent country separate from China. The official position of both governments (the one in Beijing and the one in Taipei) is that China is one country, which includes Taiwan, and that their government is the sole legitimate government for the entire country. Most countries in the world recognize the Beijing government. A handful still recognize the Taipei government. Nobody officially recognizes both governments. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-calls-pakistan-taiwan-and-other-world-leaders-to-chat/773693/54 "2016-12-03T19:10:41Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > China drew an aggressive line, Trump took a step across it, and the Chinese just sputtered in response. Small but clear win for Trump. Really? China’s response to this has been that Trump is inexperienced and fell to Taiwanese trickery. There was also a not too subtle warning to Trump that he had better not follow through on this. I don’t see how Trump came out of this looking good. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-calls-pakistan-taiwan-and-other-world-leaders-to-chat/773693/55 "2016-12-03T19:16:05Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Yes, that’s the other farcical claim in the longstanding dispute. Taiwan claims all of China (although, of course, this is those diplomatic-speak things whereby everyone knows it’s fake) under the ROC. Which is a claim that should have been given up in the 1950s. > > Again, 99.999% of Taiwanese people don’t believe or assert that claim in sincerity, and I’m not sure the current DPP government even pays the lip service to it anymore. They have to maintain it as at least an official position. The mainland government has firmly declared that if Taiwan declares itself a separate country, the mainland government will respond by invading. So you have the ironic situation that Taiwan has to deny its de jure independence in order to maintain its de facto independence. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-calls-pakistan-taiwan-and-other-world-leaders-to-chat/773693/56 "2016-12-03T19:21:39Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I think the real issue is that China’s “boundaries” are manipulative and a bluff that needs to be called. By saying that a mere phone call with Tsai is the sky falling, this is manipulation and setting a ridiculously sensitive line. Caving in on this issue would set the precedent for a lot more manipulation to come. Yes, I know, such manipulation has gone on for decades but time doesn’t make it any less so. Are you saying the United States should be prepared to fight a war with China? If not, then we’re the ones who are bluffing. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-calls-pakistan-taiwan-and-other-world-leaders-to-chat/773693/57 "2016-12-03T19:51:40Z")
Cross straits trade is currently about 200 Bn USD per annum. I very seriously doubt any sensible Taiwanese wishes to end the current relationship and declare independence with its certainty of war. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-calls-pakistan-taiwan-and-other-world-leaders-to-chat/773693/58 "2016-12-03T19:54:51Z")
Which country is Taiwan’s largest trading partner? Which ‘country’ is it’s second largest? I’ll let you all do the Googling. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-calls-pakistan-taiwan-and-other-world-leaders-to-chat/773693/59 "2016-12-03T21:12:53Z")
This is all my uninformed opinion. The bluff isn’t there for the benefit of the US or the Chinese government. I’m sure the Chinese government wishes the Taiwan issue would just go away. They certainly don’t want to go to war over this. The bluff is there because it provides enough cover to allow the Communist Party to placate the extreme hardliners in China, who represent a very real threat to China’s stability. If we force the bluff, China will have to choose between suppressing the hardliners (which may not work, and will threaten the stability of the entire country) or taking aggressive action against Taiwan to keep them happy (obviously a disaster). The hardliners will not let Taiwan go, and the hardliners represent an existential risk to China as an organized political entity. A bit of ambiguity has been enough to keep this disaster from playing out as Taiwan’s relationship evolves. Hence why China isn’t freaking out. They NEED to preserve this bluff. If the populace gets riled up about this, it’s going to be very bad situation for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-calls-pakistan-taiwan-and-other-world-leaders-to-chat/773693/60 "2016-12-03T23:28:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Really? China’s response to this has been that Trump is inexperienced and fell to Taiwanese trickery. There was also a not too subtle warning to Trump that he had better not follow through on this. I don’t see how Trump came out of this looking good. Choosing to blame the Taiwanese demonstrates a desire to avoid characterizing the incident as a conflict with the US. It’s essentially a gesture of respect. , [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-calls-pakistan-taiwan-and-other-world-leaders-to-chat/773693.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-calls-pakistan-taiwan-and-other-world-leaders-to-chat/773693.md?page=4)