# Trump caved. Now what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463 "2019-01-26T20:44:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/101 "2019-01-31T00:34:23Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Rubio ain’t “fighting” nobody. He is utterly without backbone, and even in the unlikely chance he spoke up about this nobody would pay him any attention. > > Yes, you could “argue either way” - you could choose the way that involves actual statistical data based on polling a significant number of potential voters, or you could use the “I know a lot of people” and “I wouldn’t put it past a lot of them” method. They’re both equally valid approaches. Well if it were about that , I’m sure you could use data and polls and stats to support damn near whatever you wanted, so could I, so could anyone. Given an election that was awfully close. But hey, why not just throw out a hail Mary hoping for womens votes again. Let’s try a Hispanic this time, there’s a big Hispanic population… Who can we drum up that seems like they might have a chance , instead of finding the strongest actual candidate. This is the impression I get of democratic candidate selection as of late. Meanwhile Republicans are like well, let’s get someone famous, who cares anything else about them, it’s just like prom… Popular , that’s all we need. The whole thing has become ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/102 "2019-01-31T00:59:33Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > While Trump does cast the Bushes in a positive light for their character, if you measure a presidency by its impact on the nation, W’s was a \*worse \*presidency than Trump’s. > > Let’s not forget how W’s administration, under utterly false pretenses, led us into a completely unnecessary war that (besides killing hundreds of thousands) destabilized a region with wide-ranging impacts from which we’re still suffering. They also presided over the worst financial collapse in most people’s memory. While it wasn’t the administration’s direct fault, they arguably helped create the atmosphere that caused the collapse and clearly did nothing to prevent it or reduce its devastation. > > True, Trump has only had two years, and he and his ilk have destroyed the norms of public discourse and behavior that served us pretty well since WWII. There’s also no telling how deep or long-lasting the damage from his many actions (and inactions) will be, and he could very well start a nuclear war any given Thursday. But let’s never let his awfulness minimize the trainwreck of the W years. I will concede that Trump has sent fewer American servicemen off to die in an unnecessary war than either Bush did. But I’m not yet ready to call it on the long term impact of the Trump presidency. We’re still in the middle of it. As previous administrations opened the door for Trump, we have to wait and see what future problems this administration is opening the door to. Maybe in twenty years, we’ll have a President who’s even worse than Trump and whose election was made possible because of the lowering in standards we’re going through now. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/103 "2019-01-31T04:06:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I will concede that Trump has sent fewer American servicemen off to die in an unnecessary war than either Bush did. Please. The Gulf War was just. Our participation served our interests, but come on, a sovereign nation was invaded unprovoked. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/104 "2019-01-31T04:31:12Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Not for me. I still believe George W. Bush was a terrible President, even if I don’t think he was as bad as Trump is. And I didn’t succumb to nostalgia when Bush senior died; I don’t think he was a particularly good President either. > > If anything, Trump’s presidency has diminished what respect I had for the Bushes. I feel that decisions they made while President lead to Trump and I hold them responsible for that. Yes W, holy crap c’mon. He managed a re election…still baffles me. How…just…how ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/105 "2019-01-31T06:30:01Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Well if it were about that , I’m sure you could use data and polls and stats to support damn near whatever you wanted, so could I, so could anyone. Except you didn’t cite any polls showing people voted for Obama because he’s black. And you know, here in Great Debates, supportive data is usually pretty important, hence the calls for cites. I’m not surprised I couldn’t find any supporting your theory, but if you can, by all means, show us. The old, “Anybody can find data to support any view” is disingenuous and dodgy, frankly. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/106 "2019-01-31T07:35:20Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Except you didn’t cite any polls showing people voted for Obama because he’s black. And you know, here in Great Debates, supportive data is usually pretty important, hence the calls for cites. I’m not surprised I couldn’t find any supporting your theory, but if you can, by all means, show us. The old, “Anybody can find data to support any view” is disingenuous and dodgy, frankly. [https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/08/after-the-massive-disappointment-of-barack-obama-its-time-for-bl/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwiC-oHfv5fgAhVMlKwKHVsSBDYQFjAAegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw2HywM0xQyvbnoslvW-r2Iy&cf=1](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/08/after-the-massive-disappointment-of-barack-obama-its-time-for-bl/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwiC-oHfv5fgAhVMlKwKHVsSBDYQFjAAegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw2HywM0xQyvbnoslvW-r2Iy&cf=1) [https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.joe.ie/amp/uncategorized/samuel-l-jackson-i-voted-for-obama-because-hes-black-32412&ved=2ahUKEwiC-oHfv5fgAhVMlKwKHVsSBDYQFjABegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw2opOWmdhxWpQimVp49bZd7&cf=1](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.joe.ie/amp/uncategorized/samuel-l-jackson-i-voted-for-obama-because-hes-black-32412&ved=2ahUKEwiC-oHfv5fgAhVMlKwKHVsSBDYQFjABegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw2opOWmdhxWpQimVp49bZd7&cf=1) [https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/files/cces/files/schaffner-\_racial\_salience\_pp\_revised.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiC-oHfv5fgAhVMlKwKHVsSBDYQFjAEegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw3qo0UGmnz2yN2NZYxDN4Ip&cshid=1548919982691](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/files/cces/files/schaffner-_racial_salience_pp_revised.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiC-oHfv5fgAhVMlKwKHVsSBDYQFjAEegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw3qo0UGmnz2yN2NZYxDN4Ip&cshid=1548919982691) [https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/8865414/amp&ved=2ahUKEwizzbXqwJfgAhVGja0KHdW5B904ChAWMAN6BAgHEAE&usg=AOvVaw34JMob5xnXxU9GN\_0r6i7s](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/8865414/amp&ved=2ahUKEwizzbXqwJfgAhVGja0KHdW5B904ChAWMAN6BAgHEAE&usg=AOvVaw34JMob5xnXxU9GN_0r6i7s) ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/107 "2019-01-31T07:41:40Z")
> **[Inside Obama’s Sweeping Victory](https://www.pewresearch.org/2008/11/05/inside-obamas-sweeping-victory/)** > > Barack Obama captured the White House on the strength of a substantial electoral shift toward the Democratic Party and by winning a number of key groups in the middle of the electorate. In particular, the overwhelming backing of younger voters was a... 95 percent of the black vote While whites were split almost evenly across the board. Must have just been the issues. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/108 "2019-01-31T07:45:10Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Except you didn’t cite any polls showing people voted for Obama because he’s black. And you know, here in Great Debates, supportive data is usually pretty important, hence the calls for cites. I’m not surprised I couldn’t find any supporting your theory, but if you can, by all means, show us. The old, “Anybody can find data to support any view” is disingenuous and dodgy, frankly. I am sure some did. But was it enough to make a difference? I doubt that. There were likely just as many who didnt vote for him for the same reason. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/109 "2019-01-31T07:52:43Z")
You can’t get 95 percent of an entire demographic to agree on a majority of issues but in a near 50/50 election it’s certainly enough to make the win. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/110 "2019-01-31T07:55:39Z")
If you really want cites to show there are racists who would vote for anybody but a black man I’m sure those are easy to come by too ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/111 "2019-01-31T08:12:00Z")
Actually there already is one. The pew research article says that 7 percent of white voters said race was an important factor and 96 percent of them voted for McCain. So you’ve got a whole 6. Something percent who admitted it ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/112 "2019-01-31T16:28:01Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Please. The Gulf War was just. Our participation served our interests, but come on, a sovereign nation was invaded unprovoked. And the Iraq war? ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/113 "2019-01-31T16:33:19Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > And the Iraq war? Was a total fuck-up, which everyone knows already. What is your point? ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/114 "2019-01-31T17:00:34Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > Was a total fuck-up, which everyone knows already. What is your point? Just to clarify that \*\*Sitnam \*\*was only defending Bush I. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/115 "2019-01-31T17:10:40Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > [Inside Obama’s Sweeping Victory | Pew Research Center](http://www.pewresearch.org/2008/11/05/inside-obamas-sweeping-victory/) > > 95 percent of the black vote > While whites were split almost evenly across the board. > > Must have just been the issues. Quite possibly. Black people, taken as a group, have very different experiences than white people do in their interactions with various levels of governmental authority. And while the Dems don’t have a great track record for ameliorating that, they know the GOP plays a very active role in widening that gap. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/116 "2019-01-31T17:14:48Z")
In the last few decades, black voters overwhelmingly support Democrats. They’ve overwhelmingly supported white Democrats over black Republicans at times. They overwhelmingly vote Democratic regardless of the race of the candidates. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/117 "2019-01-31T18:00:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In the last few decades, black voters overwhelmingly support Democrats. They’ve overwhelmingly supported white Democrats over black Republicans at times. They overwhelmingly vote Democratic regardless of the race of the candidates. Never at 95 percent. Not to mention all the other articles. Anyway, point wasn’t to prove that. Just to prove it could easily be argued…with stats. Including the stats that that show some voters chose McCain just because he wasn’t the black guy. Seems clear to me Democrats know recent elections have run very close so one strategy they’ve taken is to trot out pet group candidates in hopes it swings them the extra 5 percent they need. Whether they are really their best representative or not. Hillary was another example Find the strongest candidate instead and I think 2020 will give a better chance against Trump. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/118 "2019-01-31T18:06:15Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Seems clear to me Democrats know recent elections have run very close so one strategy they’ve taken is to trot out pet group candidates in hopes it swings them the extra 5 percent they need. Whether they are really their best representative or not. I see no reason to believe this, unless you believe that qualified and solid non-white-male candidates are extremely rare. > [@](#): > > Hillary was another example Of what? The vast majority of Hillary supporters (and Bernie supporters, for that matter) that I’ve spoken too supported that candidate because they believed their preferred candidate had the best combination of chances to win and matching on the issues. > [@](#): > > Find the strongest candidate instead and I think 2020 will give a better chance against Trump. This is what I and pretty much every Democrat I’ve ever spoken to advocate. We want the best candidate in 2020. Do you really believe we, or Democrats in general, don’t want the strongest candidate? We might disagree on who exactly is the strongest candidate, but what you appear to be putting forward here strikes me as delusional. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/119 "2019-01-31T19:08:27Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Never at 95 percent. > Not to mention all the other articles. > > Anyway, point wasn’t to prove that. Just to prove it could easily be argued…with stats. > > Including the stats that that show some voters chose McCain just because he wasn’t the black guy. > Seems clear to me Democrats know recent elections have run very close so one strategy they’ve taken is to trot out pet group candidates in hopes it swings them the extra 5 percent they need. Whether they are really their best representative or not. > > Hillary was another example > > Find the strongest candidate instead and I think 2020 will give a better chance against Trump. The notion that Hillary was only pushed because she was a woman is silly. She’s got tons of experience in politics, has incredible name recognition, is fairly moderate, and is massively establishment. There are lots of reasons why she would have been appealing to the democratic establishment as a candidate. Unfortunately charisma wasn’t one of them. (They also underestimated the massive Russian misinformation campaign that she’d be facing, but I don’t fault them for not predicting that - and I’m confident that any other candidate would have faced the same thing.) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/120 "2019-01-31T19:53:22Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Please. The Gulf War was just. Our participation served our interests, but come on, a sovereign nation was invaded unprovoked. I’m okay with the Gulf War (the one over Kuwait) and the Afghanistan War. But I don’t think the Panama War and the Iraq War (the second one) were necessary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463.md?page=7)