# Trump caved. Now what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463 "2019-01-26T20:44:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/121 "2019-01-31T20:12:56Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > [https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/08/after-the-massive-disappointment-of-barack-obama-its-time-for-bl/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwiC-oHfv5fgAhVMlKwKHVsSBDYQFjAAegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw2HywM0xQyvbnoslvW-r2Iy&cf=1](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/08/after-the-massive-disappointment-of-barack-obama-its-time-for-bl/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwiC-oHfv5fgAhVMlKwKHVsSBDYQFjAAegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw2HywM0xQyvbnoslvW-r2Iy&cf=1) > > [https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.joe.ie/amp/uncategorized/samuel-l-jackson-i-voted-for-obama-because-hes-black-32412&ved=2ahUKEwiC-oHfv5fgAhVMlKwKHVsSBDYQFjABegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw2opOWmdhxWpQimVp49bZd7&cf=1](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.joe.ie/amp/uncategorized/samuel-l-jackson-i-voted-for-obama-because-hes-black-32412&ved=2ahUKEwiC-oHfv5fgAhVMlKwKHVsSBDYQFjABegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw2opOWmdhxWpQimVp49bZd7&cf=1) > > [https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/files/cces/files/schaffner-\_racial\_salience\_pp\_revised.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiC-oHfv5fgAhVMlKwKHVsSBDYQFjAEegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw3qo0UGmnz2yN2NZYxDN4Ip&cshid=1548919982691](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/files/cces/files/schaffner-_racial_salience_pp_revised.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiC-oHfv5fgAhVMlKwKHVsSBDYQFjAEegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw3qo0UGmnz2yN2NZYxDN4Ip&cshid=1548919982691) > [https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/8865414/amp&ved=2ahUKEwizzbXqwJfgAhVGja0KHdW5B904ChAWMAN6BAgHEAE&usg=AOvVaw34JMob5xnXxU9GN\_0r6i7s](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/8865414/amp&ved=2ahUKEwizzbXqwJfgAhVGja0KHdW5B904ChAWMAN6BAgHEAE&usg=AOvVaw34JMob5xnXxU9GN_0r6i7s) You’re brand new here, so you may not realize that googling a term and listing a few hits is generally a bad idea. Cite #1: editorial. An editorial expresses an opinion and is not a source for reliable data. You’re likely to get called out on that here. Cite #2: one black actor, Samuel L. Jackson, voted for Obama because he’s black, which proves precisely nothing. Cite#3: You really should read your cites before posting them. This one does not support your theory on Obama’s election to office: > [@](#): > > I find that when race was a more salient factor for white voters, they were substantially less likely to vote for Obama and were more likely to think that Obama was focusing attention on African Americans during the campaign. I estimate that the salience of race for some whites may have cost Obama as much as 3% of the white vote. Thus, this paper indicates that even in Obama’s historic 2008 campaign, African American candidates continue to face barriers to winning white support. Cite #4: another editorial. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/122 "2019-01-31T20:34:56Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Never at 95 percent. > Not to mention all the other articles. > > Anyway, point wasn’t to prove that. Just to prove it could easily be argued…with stats. > > Including the stats that that show some voters chose McCain just because he wasn’t the black guy. > Seems clear to me Democrats know recent elections have run very close so one strategy they’ve taken is to trot out pet group candidates in hopes it swings them the extra 5 percent they need. Whether they are really their best representative or not. > > Hillary was another example > > Find the strongest candidate instead and I think 2020 will give a better chance against Trump. Let’s start with that 95% of all Black voters stat. The impact of a particular demographic depends on how large that demographic is. In 2008, 12.1% of voters were Black. That’s not to say that the Black vote is irrelevant, simply that it could not be the sole factor in Barack Obama’s election. You still haven’t provided any statistics that show white voters, who comprised 76% of the turnout that year, voted for Obama because he’s black. In fact, you haven’t proved Black voters voted for Obama solely because he’s black. To assume black voters vote for a candidate, any candidate, solely because he’s black is pretty insulting. Now let’s move on to your statement that recent elections have been very close. Barack Obama beat John McCain 53% to 49%–10 million votes. Hardly a close election. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/123 "2019-02-01T01:20:40Z")
1. Nobody said only In fact it’s a good strategy, sometimes. If you’ve got an election that you know you can put in candidate A and get 49 percent just in other factors or you can put in candidate B and get around the same except B is likely to secure s particular demographic because of race then hell yeah you throw B in there nab that 4 Percent and Bam you got a winner. 2. You got your poll stats and they certainly can be used to make a good argument since the variance between normal black voting for Dems and black voting for Obama is nearly exactly the percentage span the election was won by. 95 instead of 70 percent of 12 percent Not to mention Obama favored heavily with Hispanics which was known early on. 3. I think I pretty well proved a 6 percent of white voters choosing McCain based on race and if you didn’t believe there were enough racists to make that a possibility than hey racism concerns are officially dead ( yeah right) 4. The bar is awfully low here since all I needed to prove was that i could use stats to argue it. Now In reality I believe racial bias worked more against obama than the numbers show but there were also huge numbers swayed toward him bc it was exciting, the possibility of having the first black president i mean c’mon, it was. As much as I know there were huge numbers women who really wished they could have gotten a female president but just could not bring themselves to vote for Hillary. So sometimes it works sometimes it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/124 "2019-02-01T01:34:02Z")
Besides to make the win you just needed variance totalling 2 percent to swing from 49-51 anyhow when you got a variance accounting for a little over 3 percent. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/125 "2019-02-01T01:45:46Z")
And if the variance alone isn’t enough then go ahead and factor it accounting for the spike in black voter turnout for Obamas election. And the editorial pieces purely anecdotal but still enough to show that it’s certainly possible for an actor a black republican and a few others to admittedly vote for Obama because he was black. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/126 "2019-02-01T02:56:55Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > 1. Nobody said only > In fact it’s a good strategy, sometimes. > If you’ve got an election that you know you can put in candidate A and get 49 percent just in other factors or you can put in candidate B and get around the same except B is likely to secure s particular demographic because of race then hell yeah you throw B in there nab that 4 Percent and Bam you got a winner. > > 2. You got your poll stats and they certainly can be used to make a good argument since the variance between normal black voting for Dems and black voting for Obama is nearly exactly the percentage span the election was won by. > 95 instead of 70 percent of 12 percent > Not to mention Obama favored heavily with Hispanics which was known early on. > > 3. I think I pretty well proved a 6 percent of white voters choosing McCain based on race and if you didn’t believe there were enough racists to make that a possibility than hey racism concerns are officially dead ( yeah right) > > 4. The bar is awfully low here since all I needed to prove was that i could use stats to argue it. > Now In reality I believe racial bias worked more against obama than the numbers show but there were also huge numbers swayed toward him bc it was exciting, the possibility of having the first black president i mean c’mon, it was. > > As much as I know there were huge numbers women who really wished they could have gotten a female president but just could not bring themselves to vote for Hillary. > > So sometimes it works sometimes it doesn’t. > [@Littleman](#): > > Besides to make the win you just needed variance totalling 2 percent to swing from 49-51 anyhow when you got a variance accounting for a little over 3 percent. > [@Littleman](#): > > And if the variance alone isn’t enough then go ahead and factor it accounting for the spike in black voter turnout for Obamas election. > > And the editorial pieces purely anecdotal but still enough to show that it’s certainly possible for an actor a black republican and a few others to admittedly vote for Obama because he was black. What is your point? ANY of your points? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/127 "2019-02-01T04:41:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m okay with the Gulf War (the one over Kuwait) and the Afghanistan War. But I don’t think the Panama War and the Iraq War (the second one) were necessary. The Panama War, ok. Had forgotten about it. I would be interested in what the Panamanian people thought of it then and now. That would sway me whether or not it was just. Necessary, well, until foreign bombs or boots stomp on US soil no action is necessary. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/128 "2019-02-01T07:54:21Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > 1. Nobody said only Finish your sentence. In fact it’s a good strategy, sometimes. > [@](#): > > If you’ve got an election that you know you can put in candidate A and get 49 percent just in other factors or you can put in candidate B and get around the same except B is likely to secure s particular demographic because of race then hell yeah you throw B in there nab that 4 Percent and Bam you got a winner[ Uh-huh. That’s not what happened in the 2008 election. 1. You got your poll stats and they certainly can be used to make a good argument since the variance between normal black voting for Dems and black voting for Obama is nearly exactly the percentage span the election was won by.95 instead of 70 percent of 12 percent Not to mention Obama favored heavily with Hispanics which was known early on. [/QUOTE] Good lord, are you still trying to argue that the only reason people of color voted for Obama was because he’s black? Obama failed to win Hispanic voters in the California primary, among other states. Are you proposing that Hispanic voters suddenly realized he was Black before the election and decided that was reason enough to vote for him? > [@](#): > > 1. I think I pretty well proved a 6 percent of white voters choosing McCain based on race and if you didn’t believe there were enough racists to make that a possibility than hey racism concerns are officially dead ( yeah right) No, you didn’t prove any such thing. I never said race was not a concern. I merely pointed out, correctly, that your theory that Obama was elected because he’s black is unproven and illogical. > [@](#): > > 1. The bar is awfully low here since all I needed to prove was that i could use stats to argue it. No, you needed to use _reliable_ stats from _reliable_ sources. You didn’t. > [@](#): > > Now In reality I believe racial bias worked more against obama than the numbers show but there were also huge numbers swayed toward him bc it was exciting, the possibility of having the first black president i mean c’mon, it was. Whether or not it was “exciting,” it’s not the reason a significant number of people voted for him. If you think that with the economy crashing and healthcare costs soaring (The two top concerns of Americans in 2008.) were less significant to voters than the possibility of a black president, you were either too young to recall or suffer from amnesia. > [@](#): > > As much as I know there were huge numbers women who really wished they could have gotten a female president but just could not bring themselves to vote for Hillary. Irrelevant to the topic at hand. > [@](#): > > So sometimes it works sometimes it doesn’t. Whatever “it” is, you’ve weakened your already weak argument with this line. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/129 "2019-02-01T07:58:52Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > . > > And the editorial pieces purely anecdotal but still enough to show that it’s certainly possible for an actor a black republican and a few others to admittedly vote for Obama because he was black. Oo, one Black actor voted for Obama because he’s black! That MUST be the reason so many other blacks voted for Obama! Because every person who’s black speaks for all blacks, who all think alike, right? :smack: Do you even realize how racist this is? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/130 "2019-02-01T21:14:08Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > The Panama War, ok. Had forgotten about it. I would be interested in what the Panamanian people thought of it then and now. That would sway me whether or not it was just. > > Necessary, well, until foreign bombs or boots stomp on US soil no action is necessary. Well, until it was decided that the US would be taking giant dumps on all its treaties there was the possibility that our participation would be compelled by aforementioned treaties. I hedge this by confessing that I know nothing about actual history and thus it’s possible that every single conflict we’ve been in was uncompelled. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2019, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/131 "2019-02-02T02:35:32Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Finish your sentence. > In fact it’s a good strategy, sometimes. > Uh-huh. That’s not what happened in the 2008 election. > > 1. You got your poll stats and they certainly can be used to make a good argument since the variance between normal black voting for Dems and black voting for Obama is nearly exactly the percentage span the election was won by.95 instead of 70 percent of 12 percent > Not to mention Obama favored heavily with Hispanics which was known early on. Good lord, are you still trying to argue that the only reason people of color voted for Obama was because he’s black? Obama failed to win Hispanic voters in the California primary, among other states. Are you proposing that Hispanic voters suddenly realized he was Black before the election and decided that was reason enough to vote for him? No, you didn’t prove any such thing. I never said race was not a concern. I merely pointed out, correctly, that your theory that Obama was elected because he’s black is unproven and illogical. No, you needed to use _reliable_ stats from _reliable_ sources. You didn’t. Whether or not it was “exciting,” it’s not the reason a significant number of people voted for him. If you think that with the economy crashing and healthcare costs soaring (The two top concerns of Americans in 2008.) were less significant to voters than the possibility of a black president, you were either too young to recall or suffer from amnesia. Irrelevant to the topic at hand. Whatever “it” is, you’ve weakened your already weak argument with this line. [/QUOTE] Pew exit polls are unreliable sources of stats? ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2019, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/132 "2019-02-02T03:11:42Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Oo, one Black actor voted for Obama because he’s black! That MUST be the reason so many other blacks voted for Obama! Because every person who’s black speaks for all blacks, who all think alike, right? :smack: Do you even realize how racist this is? One? Clearly your too stuck on your view to even bother. Four different people , four different backgrounds , different parties, different viewpoints. Besides it wasn’t me who suggested black people think unilaterally… That was some other posters reasoning for how Obama could pull 95 percent. And guess what , I voted for him too Never said only… That was in response to being told it wasnt the only reason. I. I never said it was the only reason that he or Hillary were chosen as candidates but I guarantee it was factored in… And Democrats expected the black vote with Obama, and expected a much higher percentage of female votes than they got with Hillary. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2019, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/133 "2019-02-02T03:15:06Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The notion that Hillary was only pushed because she was a woman is silly. She’s got tons of experience in politics, has incredible name recognition, is fairly moderate, and is massively establishment. There are lots of reasons why she would have been appealing to the democratic establishment as a candidate. > > Unfortunately charisma wasn’t one of them. > > (They also underestimated the massive Russian misinformation campaign that she’d be facing, but I don’t fault them for not predicting that - and I’m confident that any other candidate would have faced the same thing.) Good point on the charisma… Idk if I’d call Hillary uncharismatic but maybe outmatched sometimes. As dumb as it sounds I think Humor could defeat Trump… Playground bully, you either hit them, or make people laugh at them. Someone witty might help a lot. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2019, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/134 "2019-02-02T05:48:00Z")
Try it. Let us know how it works out for you. Getting people to laugh at the bully works great, it really pisses him off, and provides a handy focus. More teeth have been lost for a sick burn than a clumsy insult. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463/135 "2019-02-04T23:32:23Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Try it. Let us know how it works out for you. Getting people to laugh at the bully works great, it really pisses him off, and provides a handy focus. More teeth have been lost for a sick burn than a clumsy insult. Er, weren’t we talking about interactions during things like presidential debates? I’m not sure the aged out-of-shape dude slapping your teeth out with his small hands is a real concern here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-caved-now-what/828463.md?page=6)