# Trump declares "National Emergency" to build The Wall-Will it hold? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 15, 2019, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617 "2019-02-15T17:54:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/21 "2019-02-15T18:51:43Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > Is a resolution challenging an emergency subject to a veto? [Trump seems to think so,](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/trump-plans-veto-any-hill-interference-emergency-border-declaration-say-n971996) but that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/22 "2019-02-15T18:54:52Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t think you have a very good understanding of what the National Emergencies Act allows. You might want to review [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Emergencies_Act), for starters. What specifically is violated by the items on my list that are not violated by Trumps declaration. (Other than IOKIYAR) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/23 "2019-02-15T18:56:08Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I wish Congress hadn’t spent the last several decades giving up power to the executive branch. I suspect this order is legal, but I’m not a fan. I don’t think it’s really setting a new “precedent” either. You’re not a fan…but you are going to spend post after post telling us why it shouldn’t be opposed. What is the opposite of “Damning with faint praise”-“Praising with faint damnation”? ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/24 "2019-02-15T18:59:39Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > Is a resolution challenging an emergency subject to a veto? My (limited) understanding is that it’s not. If the House passes a resolution, it becomes a privileged resolution that must be voted on in the Senate; and if it passes both chambers by a simple majority, it takes effect and the emergency is consigned to the dustbin of history. > > Can someone with more knowledge than I have — not hard — confirm or contradict? So, as I read it, a emergency declared by the President is “terminated” when (1) “there is enacted into law a joint resolution terminating the emergency” or (2) “the President issues a proclamation terminating the emergency.” 50 U.S.C. 1622. According to the [Senate website glossary](https://www.senate.gov/reference/glossary_term/joint_resolution.htm), a “joint resolution” is " submitted (just as a bill) to the president for possible signature into law." So unless I’m missing some relevant provision (entirely possible), the President would need to sign the joint resolution for it take effect and (therefore) could veto it. Which is kinda weird, because if he’s willing to sign the joint resolution, he could just issue the proclamation. But I guess it forces Congress to take partial ownership of ending whatever emergency has been declared. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/25 "2019-02-15T19:04:56Z")
I think the Senate and the Supreme Court will let this stand. The Republicans aren’t going to defy a Republican President. So Trump will probably be able to start construction of his wall by stealing the money from the armed forces. Trump’s supporters will believe this is a great thing. Because Trump will tell them to believe that. In the long run, this is going to end up as another failure for Trump. He can probably divert enough money to get a wall started but he’s not going to be able to complete it without a lot more money from Congress and the House isn’t going to approve it. So Trump will spend five billion dollars or so building a three mile long section of the wall and it’ll stop there. It’ll accomplish nothing except to be a standing demonstration of Trump’s inability to get things done. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/26 "2019-02-15T19:17:03Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think the Senate and the Supreme Court will let this stand. The Republicans aren’t going to defy a Republican President. So Trump will probably be able to start construction of his wall by stealing the money from the armed forces. > > Trump’s supporters will believe this is a great thing. Because Trump will tell them to believe that. > > In the long run, this is going to end up as another failure for Trump. He can probably divert enough money to get a wall started but he’s not going to be able to complete it without a lot more money from Congress and the House isn’t going to approve it. So Trump will spend five billion dollars or so building a three mile long section of the wall and it’ll stop there. It’ll accomplish nothing except to be a standing demonstration of Trump’s inability to get things done. Trump will spend eight billion dollars on Russian steel that will sit unused. It’ll accomplish something - just not building a wall. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/27 "2019-02-15T19:26:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You’re not a fan…but you are going to spend post after post telling us why it shouldn’t be opposed. > What is the opposite of “Damning with faint praise”-“Praising with faint damnation”? I don’t care if you oppose it. Go right ahead. Pelosi can author a joint resolution, and bring it up for a vote. It’ll probably even pass in the House. I don’t know what you expected. Fire-and-brimstone outrage over it? It’s like 0.2% of the federal budget, to do something I’m not opposed to. Sure, I’d prefer he not go about it this way (via an emergency declaration), but I’m not going to wake up in a cold sweat tonight because he did. Like I said, I don’t think it’s especially precedent-setting. It is not, in the words of our former vice president, “a big fucking deal”. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/28 "2019-02-15T19:29:43Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t think you have a very good understanding of what the National Emergencies Act allows. You might want to review [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Emergencies_Act), for starters. I didn’t see anything in your link that would support Trump’s “emergency” while precluding any of **Buck Godot** ’s. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/29 "2019-02-15T19:30:45Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > What specifically is violated by the items on my list that are not violated by Trumps declaration. (Other than IOKIYAR) Presumably the answer is that while Congress has given the President broad emergency powers, you still need to tether your actions to some statutory power. We know what Trump is relying on. I don’t know emergency power allows the President to impose income taxes (to use one of your examples) or issue education or community development grants. They could exist, but we know that they wouldn’t be supported by 10 USC 2808 (the power that, as I understand it, Trump is relying on). Edit: > [@Akaj](#): > > I didn’t see anything in your link that would support Trump’s “emergency” while precluding any of **Buck Godot** ’s. Same answer to you, I suppose. The ability to declare the emergency seems to be largely without limit and so maybe you could declare it. But what that emergency allows you to then do is (while broad) limited by the grants of emergency powers. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/30 "2019-02-15T19:31:12Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > What specifically is violated by the items on my list that are not violated by Trumps declaration. (Other than IOKIYAR) It’s not a matter of where it is violated, it’s a matter of where does the President have authorization to raise taxes upon declaration of a national emergency. I don’t see anywhere that he does. The law is written in the format of “the President can do A, B, or C in a national emergency” NOT “the President can do whatever he wants to do in a national emergency except for X, Y, or Z”. You’re asking me to show you where in the list item X is, but that’s not what the list is. The law lists things he CAN do, not things he can NOT do. If “raise taxes” isn’t in the list (and it’s not), he can’t do it. ETA: ninja’d by Falchion, and much more eloquently. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/31 "2019-02-15T19:41:56Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t care if you oppose it. Go right ahead. Pelosi can author a joint resolution, and bring it up for a vote. It’ll probably even pass in the House. > > I don’t know what you expected. Fire-and-brimstone outrage over it? It’s like 0.2% of the federal budget, to do something I’m not opposed to. So logically you are in support of the likely loss of readiness for our military? Don’t think so, but that is where that logic from your post leads. > **[Which construction projects would be affected if Trump uses military money to...](https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2019/02/14/what-base-projects-lose-out-if-trump-uses-military-money-to-build-his-wall/)** > > More than $21 billion in planned military construction could be disrupted by the president's latest gambit on border security. > [@](#): > > The end result could mean multi-year delays for a host of construction projects military officials have deemed critical to force readiness. > > Among the potential targets: a new vehicle maintenance shop at Camp Arifjan in Kuwait, drydock repairs at Joint Base Pearl Harbor-Hickam in Hawaii, F-35 hangar improvements at Luke Air Force Base in Arizona, ongoing hospital construction at Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in Germany, and new family housing builds in South Korea, Italy and Wisconsin. Military Times, that I quoted there, also did quote Congressman G. K. Butterfield: > [@](#): > > Things that are a national emergency: > > - Opioid epidemic > - Russian interference in our elections > - Climate change > - Gun violence > > Things that are not a national emergency: > -Building a wall on the southern border. Even from very right wing groups, there is the view that this is a very bad precedent to let it stay. > [@](#): > > Outside experts also questioned the move. Mackenzie Eaglen, a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, said making the declaration “will forever destroy precedent for what constitutes an ‘emergency’ under executive authority.” She predicted an immediate and lengthy court challenge. Bottom line, you still support a leader that is doing his best to undermine America just to give some some “good” feelings to his base. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/32 "2019-02-15T19:42:32Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > Presumably the answer is that while Congress has given the President broad emergency powers, you still need to tether your actions to some statutory power. We know what Trump is relying on. I don’t know emergency power allows the President to impose income taxes (to use one of your examples) or issue education or community development grants. They could exist, but we know that they wouldn’t be supported by 10 USC 2808 (the power that, as I understand it, Trump is relying on). > > Same answer to you, I suppose. The ability to declare the emergency seems to be largely without limit and so maybe you could declare it. But what that emergency allows you to then do is (while broad) limited by the grants of emergency powers. OK, so what’s to stop the next Democratic president from declaring that lack of access to safe abortion is a national emergency, and diverting military funds and personnel to building clinics in Kentucky? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/33 "2019-02-15T19:44:02Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s not a matter of where it is violated, it’s a matter of where does the President have authorization to raise taxes upon declaration of a national emergency. I don’t see anywhere that he does. > > The law is written in the format of “the President can do A, B, or C in a national emergency” NOT “the President can do whatever he wants to do in a national emergency except for X, Y, or Z”. You’re asking me to show you where in the list item X is, but that’s not what the list is. The law lists things he CAN do, not things he can NOT do. If “raise taxes” isn’t in the list (and it’s not), he can’t do it. Do you believe your opinions on this topic in general are influenced by your political affiliation? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/34 "2019-02-15T19:45:16Z")
I feel like I’ve been channeling **Bricker** all morning. I believe that POTUS is within his legal rights under the National Emergencies Act to make this declaration. I believe that Congress does not have standing of themselves to bring a suit. And I believe that any suit brought by someone _with_ standing (say, someone hosed by eminent domain seizure) will not prevail. Which is all to say that here we have yet another law predicated in part on norms and tradition which are increasingly irrelevant. It relies on a rational actor in the White House willing to exercise the law in the way it was intended to be used. But the law was clearly poorly written and subject to being rules lawyered. Congress could have fixed this, and they can fix it going forward, by clarifying the law if they so choose. But he’s within the bounds of the law as written. “You could warn them…if only you spoke Hovitos.” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/35 "2019-02-15T19:45:43Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > How about relocate Guantanamo prisoners to the United States over the objections of Congress? > > How about decide that migrants should be eligible for treatment at military hospitals at no cost to those receiving care? I don’t see that a president’s emergency powers allow for the relocation of prisoners. Same thing regarding medical treatment. But, given his powers as CiC and the nature of the prisoners as “enemy combatants” and / or military hospitals, there might be some other powers the president has that would allow him to accomplish either of those goals. Aside from the legal aspects, they’re both very likely political suicide. If a president were to transfer Guantanamo detainees to the states, he risks their release into the USA being ordered by a judge, and the potential for subsequent terrorist attacks. He’d be crucified for it. Same thing with military hospitals. The VA has been a total shitshow for years, but if he were to order them to treat illegal aliens for free, as soon as some soldier died while waiting for treatment at an overcrowded military hospital, well … the president’s political career would die with him. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/36 "2019-02-15T19:46:48Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > OK, so what’s to stop the next Democratic president from declaring that lack of access to safe abortion is a national emergency, and diverting military funds and personnel to building clinics in Kentucky? A republican Congress given marching orders to oppose everything the Democratic President proposes, sight unseen…even if they previously supported the idea? ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/37 "2019-02-15T19:47:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > A republican Congress given marching orders to oppose everything the Democratic President proposes, sight unseen…even if they previously supported the idea? How? Congress can’t stop Trump this time. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/38 "2019-02-15T19:49:01Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t see that a president’s emergency powers allow for the relocation of prisoners. Same thing regarding medical treatment. But, given his powers as CiC and the nature of the prisoners as “enemy combatants” and / or military hospitals, there might be some other powers the president has that would allow him to accomplish either of those goals. > > Aside from the legal aspects, they’re both very likely political suicide. If a president were to transfer Guantanamo detainees to the states, he risks their release into the USA being ordered by a judge, and the potential for subsequent terrorist attacks. He’d be crucified for it. Same thing with military hospitals. The VA has been a total shitshow for years, but if he were to order them to treat illegal aliens for free, as soon as some soldier died while waiting for treatment at an overcrowded military hospital, well … the president’s political career would die with him. Sounds like you’re just backtracking because the President could do either of those things under an emergency. A few years ago, people would have probably said that there’s no way a President would seize the power of the purse without setting off a firestorm. Today, a fringe political movement is just fine with THIS president doing that. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/39 "2019-02-15T19:49:22Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > How? Congress can’t stop Trump this time. Well, they surely could if enough of them cared to. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/40 "2019-02-15T19:56:45Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Sounds like you’re just backtracking because the President could do either of those things under an emergency. … I don’t see where the “backtracking” is. I also still don’t see where either of those things are authorized by the National Emergencies Act. Could you point to a section of code perhaps that you think authorizes either of them? > [@Ravenman](#): > > … A few years ago, people would have probably said that there’s no way a President would seize the power of the purse without setting off a firestorm. Today, a fringe political movement is just fine with THIS president doing that. You might be using a non-standard definition of the word “fringe” here. Anyways, it has set off a “firestorm”. It’s just not one with, I think, much legal basis (the firestorm opposing the national emergency declaration). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617.md?page=3)