# Trump declares "National Emergency" to build The Wall-Will it hold? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 15, 2019, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617 "2019-02-15T17:54:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/101 "2019-02-16T12:14:57Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Probably not very. Do you imagine that being popular rates very high on my list of concerns? No. The problem is that the politicians you support don’t rate “honesty” very high. They want to do away with social security and medicare but they never campaign on that. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/102 "2019-02-16T13:49:49Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t care if you oppose it. Go right ahead. Pelosi can author a joint resolution, and bring it up for a vote. It’ll probably even pass in the House. > > I don’t know what you expected. Fire-and-brimstone outrage over it? It’s like 0.2% of the federal budget, to do something I’m not opposed to. Sure, I’d prefer he not go about it this way (via an emergency declaration), but I’m not going to wake up in a cold sweat tonight because he did. Like I said, I don’t think it’s especially precedent-setting. It is not, in the words of our former vice president, “a big fucking deal”. Am I reading this right? HurricaneDitka is not opposed to (a) building an ineffective wall to (b) stem a non-existent invasion, (c) using funds for the military to pay for the aforementioned wall, and (d) doesn’t think any of this is concerning? Someone please be so kind as to let me know when this thread is (inevitably) moved to The BBQ Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/103 "2019-02-16T13:55:55Z")
So back to the purely legal matters here. The President has a weak case that these authorities will achieve what he wants. He’s using four pots of money: 1. The $1.4 billion in the recent appropriations bill. This money has all sorts of restrictions on it, such as only building types of fences previously built, and only in certain areas. I think literally everyone acknowledges that these restrictions tie the President’s hands. 2. Up to $600 million from the Treasury forfeiture fund. I don’t know a whole lot about this, but it would seem to work. But that isn’t a whole lot of money. 3. Up to $2.5 billion in military counter drug funding. It isn’t a slam dunk that this could built a wall, but it’s reasonably plausible. But there’s several problems. First, this money cannot buy land, so it’s limited to public lands only. Second, there isn’t $2.5 billion in this account, so the money has to be reprogrammed in. This is extremely important. The law which allows DoD to transfer money from one pot to another has restrictions. Specifically: “Provided, That such authority to transfer may not be used unless for higher priority items, based on unforeseen military re- quirements, than those for which originally appropriated and in no case where the item for which funds are requested has been denied by the Congress.” Does anyone see the problem? There are three. First, Congress has denied funding for the projects intended to be carried out. Second, the wall cannot be described as “unforeseen.” Third, it is a stretch to see the wall as a “military requirement” when the military is only acting in support of another agency which owns the requirement for border security. Any court that reads the law must surely find fault on one of these three grounds, which is fatal to the effort to transfer the money for the wall. Note that an emergency declaration does not impact this authority in any way - the emergency is totally irrelevant. 1. Up to $3.5 billion in military construction funds. An emergency declaration allows the Secretary of Defense to conduct military construction projects notwithstanding any other legal limitations. People have focused on on the term emergency has no legal definition. (I don’t think that is a strong argument, but I will ignore it for now.) But the term “military construction” does have a legal definition at 10 USC 2801, and it requires that milcon be conducted on a military base. I’m pretty confident that there’s only one place that meets this defintion, the Barry Goldwater bombing range near Yuma, AZ. Milcon can be used to acquire land to create a military base, but now we are talking about an onerous process of seizing land from private owners, which could be tied up in courts for a while. So this authority is largely a bust, too. I think any judge who actually looks at the text of the laws involved here can only come to one conclusion, setting aside the larger issue of whether they are fine with President’s acting like dictators to seize power from Congress to override negotiations on laws that don’t go the President’s way: the statutes involved quite literally don’t support what the authoritarians in the White House want to do. But, seeing as how the judiciary is being stacked with judges who claim to want to follow the letter of the law and also give more power to the President to spite the other two branches, it isn’t a slam dunk that courts ruling on the merits will come to the right decision. But they ought to. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/104 "2019-02-16T14:43:13Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So back to the purely legal matters here. Thank you. Sounds like there are some real questions of legality here. But I’m still wondering: who sues? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/105 "2019-02-16T15:00:27Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Thank you. Sounds like there are some real questions of legality here. But I’m still wondering: who sues? I have the same question! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/106 "2019-02-16T15:10:33Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Thank you. Sounds like there are some real questions of legality here. But I’m still wondering: who sues? Two lawsuits already on the dock, with more to come for sure. > **[First lawsuits filed against President Donald Trump's national emergency order](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/02/15/donald-trump-national-emergency-border-wall-lawsuits/2882729002/)** > > The liberal watchdog group Public Citizen filed a federal lawsuit Friday in the District of Columbia on behalf of three Texas landowners > [@](#): > > At least two lawsuits have been filed in response to President Donald Trump on Friday declaring a national emergency to secure funding for a wall along the southern border with Mexico. > > The filings are expected to be part of a flurry of legal challenges to the constitutionality of Trump’s decision. > [@](#): > > But within hours after Trump signed off on declaring an emergency, the liberal watchdog group Public Citizen filed a federal lawsuit late Friday in the District of Columbia. \*\*The suit also includes three Texas landowners who are located along the southern border, who were told their property would be seized for a border wall if money was allocated to the project this year. \*\* > > The lawsuit argues that Trump exceeded his powers by declaring an emergency and was a clear violation of the separation of powers. > > “The president has no inherent authority to declare emergencies to override appropriations laws and other laws enacted by Congress; his emergency powers are defined and limited by statute,” the lawsuit states. “Because no national emergency exists with respect to immigration across the southern border, the President’s Declaration exceeds the limited authority delegated to the President.” > > Another federal lawsuit was filed in D.C. by the Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, a prominent government watchdog group, but the litigation targets the Justice Department and revolves around a Freedom of Information Act request regarding the emergency order. > > \*\*The organization contends that Trump’s administration failed to show the legal authority of his national declaration by refusing to cough over documents requested that included communications, including legal opinions, from the Justice Department, the Department of Homeland Security, and the Department of Defense over whether Trump had the authority to declare an emergency to build a wall. \*\* > > “Americans deserve to know the true basis for President Trump’s unprecedented decision to enact emergency powers to pay for a border wall,” CREW Executive Director Noah Bookbinder said in a statement. “We’re suing because the government has so far failed to produce the requested documents or provide an explanation for their delay.” ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/107 "2019-02-16T15:30:06Z")
Will it hold? Not if the 86-year old Ms. Ginsburg passes away. Scotus will than have five virulent right-wing extremists who will endorse whatever Trump and his ilk want. Since the death of Chief Justice Rehnquist the Court has been dominated by the right, but Arthur Kennedy was a moderate who prevented some of the worst excesses. Many Scotus cases were decided by a 5-4 vote in which Kennedy (a Reagan appointee) cast the deciding vote; he often voted for democracy and humanity inside of kleptocracy and hatred. After Kennedy’s retirement (and the McConnell treason against Obama), Roberts, a relatively sane right-winger, became the deciding vote. If Ginsburg lives, it will all be up to Roberts: He’ll decide whether the vote is 5-4 or 4-5. But if Ginsburg dies before the Forces of Mordor are defeated, Scotus will become a rubber-stamp for Trump or whatever other criminal the GOP puts in his place. > [@Monty](#): > > Am I reading this right? HurricaneDitka is not opposed to (a) building an ineffective wall to (b) stem a non-existent invasion, (c) using funds for the military to pay for the aforementioned wall, and (d) doesn’t think any of this is concerning? > > Someone please be so kind as to let me know when this thread is (inevitably) moved to The BBQ Pit. I think we should be happy Trump supporters post here. I still hope they educate us by bumping the [“Why Republicans still support Trump” thread by answering this question.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21115195&postcount=213) ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/108 "2019-02-16T16:00:35Z")
I’ll just drop this here. Trump claims that not paying any Federal Income Taxes, makes him smart. [Snopes](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-taxes-smart) Interestingly enough, he still refuses to release his tax returns to public or congressional scrutiny. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/109 "2019-02-16T16:05:28Z")
What does that have to do with the topic, **enipla**? And why mention it now? We’ve known about that one since before the election. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/110 "2019-02-16T16:27:06Z")
I am certain somewhere in this thread are folks pointing out that if congress doesn’t want to lose their power to settle on an approach to a problem, they need to use that power. Failing to act on what everyone knows is a problem, even if it isn’t an emergency, is begging the Executive to step up with his personal, non negotiated, ignorant, even, action. and, yes, this applies to every national problem detailed by all the previous posters. Don’t act, lose the ability to act. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/111 "2019-02-16T17:49:11Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > I am certain somewhere in this thread are folks pointing out that if congress doesn’t want to lose their power to settle on an approach to a problem, they need to use that power. Failing to act on what everyone knows is a problem, even if it isn’t an emergency, is begging the Executive to step up with his personal, non negotiated, ignorant, even, action. > > and, yes, this applies to every national problem detailed by all the previous posters. Don’t act, lose the ability to act. No, that’s not how the rule of law works. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/112 "2019-02-16T18:27:59Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > No, that’s not how the rule of law works. I agree with this. There’s been an idea going back, at least to the Gorsuch nomination, perhaps to DACA or even prior to that, that if Congress chooses not to do something that the executive branch can just … do it. That’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/113 "2019-02-16T19:06:13Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > I am certain somewhere in this thread are folks pointing out that if congress doesn’t want to lose their power to settle on an approach to a problem, they need to use that power. Failing to act on what everyone knows is a problem, even if it isn’t an emergency, is begging the Executive to step up with his personal, non negotiated, ignorant, even, action. > > and, yes, this applies to every national problem detailed by all the previous posters. Don’t act, lose the ability to act. > [@Ravenman](#): > > No, that’s not how the rule of law works. And what has happened is not that absent legislative action the executive fills the vacuum. It’s that the _legislative branch itself has acted_ to delegate to the executive a broad range of loosely framed faculties, out of a self-fulfilling prophesy that policymaking by collective agreement will take too long and be too compromising. If the law is too loose insofar as what are the bounds of such action, that was probably the result of how it had to be worded to get the votes to pass at all (“we will not lend you our votes if you include that prohibition… anyway why bring that up, what sane man would do that?” “oh, all right, what are the chances anyway, we’ll take it out”). So one could imagine a future administration saying \*“You know all those limitations on exercise of power that were just unwritten rules and Gentlemen’s Agreements and traditions and based on common decency and on that No Sane Person Will Do THAT… let’s make it actual law.” \* And having it all fail because more than half of Congress will simply refuse to pass it lest it be an admission that they were doing it wrong all along. (This of course because the legislative branch has come to see their main purpose in life, not just to get reelected, but to be unchallenged in primaries.) ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/114 "2019-02-16T22:53:18Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > If you want to have people who don’t contribute enough “shut the fuck up about the federal government”, why don’t we do it at the individual taxpayer (or tax-taker in the case of those whose opinions you seem to be suggesting we shouldn’t hear) level? Perhaps ban anyone who is not a net contributor from voting? Dude it was your (dumb ass) idea that Puerto Rico shouldn’t have a say because of its low contributions to federal tax coffers. If you want to extend that to stripping the right to vote from poor people, start a thread. Just please don’t act like it was my idea. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2019, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617/115 "2019-02-17T00:14:23Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I realize that the two most expensive federal programs are Social Security and Medicare, so a “study” of “which states receive the most tax dollars” is a bit like asking “which states have the most old people”. It is unsurprising to me that old people often choose to retire in relatively low-tax red states. > > ETA: If Puerto Rico were a state, it would be blue as can be, and it sure as shit isn’t “funding” anybody. And the reason that people retire to these states is because they have low taxes, and they are able to have low taxes because they are being subsidized by the wealthier states. A hold over from “pork barrel politics”, which allowed the wealthier districts to give up money to the less well off areas of the country, in return for support on policies to improve the country overall and allow the wealthier areas to generate even more wealth to share with the nation. Now we no longer have the ability to work together that way, but the appropriations are already spent, bases are already located, defense and aerospace contractors are already contracted. The money continues to flow from the blue states to the red, but it is not keeping up with the demand. The red states are faltering now that there is not new and increasing money to keep them afloat, with their governments going bankrupt and their economies collapsing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-declares-national-emergency-to-build-the-wall-will-it-hold/829617.md?page=5)