# Trump defense throwing insurrectionists under bus. What does his base think afterwards? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 12, 2021, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-defense-throwing-insurrectionists-under-bus-what-does-his-base-think-afterwards/932766 "2021-02-12T14:51:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-defense-throwing-insurrectionists-under-bus-what-does-his-base-think-afterwards/932766/81 "2021-02-17T18:55:16Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The Gadsden flag, on the other hand, has AFAICT no official symbolic role in modern government, so it’s much more easily “taken over” by right-wing extremists as an ideological symbol. I’m fairly liberal and I have a shirt with the Gadsden flag and have worn on several occasions. I also have a conceal carry permit. The white supremist right can’t lay claim to American Revolutionary symbols if they attack America and the Constitution on which it based upon is my opinion. It’s true Americans that throw it back in their face, not turn away and let them take these symbols over. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-defense-throwing-insurrectionists-under-bus-what-does-his-base-think-afterwards/932766/82 "2021-02-17T19:13:27Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > The white supremist right can’t lay claim to American Revolutionary symbols if they attack America and the Constitution on which it based upon is my opinion. It’s true Americans that throw it back in their face, not turn away and let them take these symbols over. Hey, I’m not trying to attack your own patriotic attachment to the Gadsden flag here. I’m just pointing out that neither you nor any other individual determines who is entitled to “lay claim to” what symbol. Nor is the association of certain symbols with extremist groups the fault of non-extremists for “letting them” “take these symbols over”. A lot of people don’t currently want to be associated with the Gadsden flag or certain other historical patriotic symbols because of their recently acquired RW-extremist associations. They’re not to blame for that. Nor are you to blame for choosing to use the Gadsden flag for purposes other than to express RW-extremist views. But you don’t get to choose how your preferred symbols are generally perceived, or to demand that other non-extremists ought to use your preferred symbols too because you don’t like the prospect of your own use of them being misinterpreted. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-defense-throwing-insurrectionists-under-bus-what-does-his-base-think-afterwards/932766/83 "2021-02-17T19:49:55Z")
Truth is I use it to lure right wingnuts in. And then inform them that they don’t own freedom or patriotism. And they get pissed when I tell them I am half mexican. Fuckem. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-defense-throwing-insurrectionists-under-bus-what-does-his-base-think-afterwards/932766/84 "2021-02-17T19:54:12Z")
Hear, hear. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-defense-throwing-insurrectionists-under-bus-what-does-his-base-think-afterwards/932766/85 "2021-02-17T20:14:38Z")
I’ll draw the line when the Far-Right tries to own Apple Pie. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-defense-throwing-insurrectionists-under-bus-what-does-his-base-think-afterwards/932766/86 "2021-02-17T20:36:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Like I havent criticized the hate groups also? Where have you done that? You get all upset that people react to the actions of hate groups, but I’m only seeing you taking the ones who are successfully “trolled” to task, not the trolls themselves. For instance, the OK sign didn’t become a symbol for white power because libruls were fooled into thinking it was, it became one because white supremacists started using it _as_ a symbol for white power. If you don’t like it, take it up with the hate groups that co-opt symbols that you don’t want them to, don’t get shitty with the targets of their hate. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Having blinders on, and ignoring the shortcomings of your own side is very trumpian. And making unsupported assertions and accusations like that is quite Trumpian yourself. I’m not ignoring anything, I’m just pointing out that it is the racists and bigots who choose what symbols that they use, not the ones those symbols are used against. I’m not sure what your motive of bothsidesism is here, but it’s pretty weak. Next thing you know, people are going to think that a burning cross in their front yard is a racist symbol, _just_ because racists were burning crosses in the front yards of minorities. So easily trolled, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-defense-throwing-insurrectionists-under-bus-what-does-his-base-think-afterwards/932766/87 "2021-02-17T20:40:15Z")
Those are days when flying your flag on your porch are perfectly fine. In fact, any day that you want to fly your flag on your porch is fine. If you have giant flags on your pickup, that sends a different signal. A simple display of symbols of your country can be a patriotic display. A grandiose measure of worship of these symbols indicates jingoism. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-defense-throwing-insurrectionists-under-bus-what-does-his-base-think-afterwards/932766/88 "2021-02-17T23:29:52Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > Flag Day? Flag day is dead to me, because it is Don the Con’s B-day, and my sibling hasn’t lived down that they share that Birthday. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2021, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-defense-throwing-insurrectionists-under-bus-what-does-his-base-think-afterwards/932766/89 "2021-02-18T00:15:33Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > A simple display of symbols of your country can be a patriotic display. A grandiose measure of worship of these symbols indicates jingoism. That’s fair (though, admittedly, the dividing line between grandiose and non-grandiose will be subjective). \ > [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > > [@DrDeth](#): > > > > I’d say very soon, not a hundred years. After all, the Gadsden Flag is now considered a white nationalist symbol, the Betsy Ross flag too, and of course the OK sign since liberals are so fucking easily trolled. I have heard that Hawaiian shirts are even getting on that list. > > Now, that’s a step too far! They can have my Hawaiian shirt when they pry it off of my cold, dead body! I have to agree. The right-wingers can take mayonnaise as their symbol of White Pride, if they wish------but they may _not_ have Hawaiian shirts. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2021, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-defense-throwing-insurrectionists-under-bus-what-does-his-base-think-afterwards/932766/90 "2021-02-18T01:14:36Z")
I can almost imagine some sort of dumb “ironic” thing where they said, “oh, so you libs are triggered by us going around dressed all tactical and shit? OK, how about a Hawaiian shirt, is that peaceful now?” Oh, and BTW there is an official derivative of the Gadsden flag used by the U.S. Government, the “[First Navy Jack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Navy_Jack)” . But you better be aboard the senior unit afloat of the fleet. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2021, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-defense-throwing-insurrectionists-under-bus-what-does-his-base-think-afterwards/932766/91 "2021-02-18T02:06:21Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > The right-wingers can take mayonnaise as their symbol of White Pride, if they wish------but they may _not_ have Hawaiian shirts. I think if you’re not [wearing your aloha shirt with combat gear](https://theconversation.com/far-right-boogaloo-movement-is-using-hawaiian-shirts-to-hide-its-intentions-142633), you’re not going to be mistaken for a boogaloo. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2021, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-defense-throwing-insurrectionists-under-bus-what-does-his-base-think-afterwards/932766/92 "2021-02-18T02:38:17Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > It may need a slight redesign to add some stars for DC and PR. I certainly have hopes. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2021, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-defense-throwing-insurrectionists-under-bus-what-does-his-base-think-afterwards/932766/93 "2021-02-18T04:18:56Z")
[Here are three proposals for the 51-star flag](https://www.flaginstitute.org/wp/2015/01/flag-week-usa-51-stars/). I prefer the top one. [This thread on Reddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/comments/8feqte/stars_of_us_flag_with_5170_states/) shows designs for 51 to 70 stars. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2021, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-defense-throwing-insurrectionists-under-bus-what-does-his-base-think-afterwards/932766/94 "2021-02-18T04:21:08Z")
BTW the top one is the quasi-official one which was designed at the same time as the current 50-star flag by the same people. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2021, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-defense-throwing-insurrectionists-under-bus-what-does-his-base-think-afterwards/932766/95 "2021-02-18T04:29:03Z")
I got a kick out of reading that Rededit thread. Someone posted “At what point do we give up and start writing the number?”. That got me to thinking of what it would look like if the new flag had the number fifty-one in Roman numerals. The nutjobs would freak out thinking China had taken over! ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2021, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-defense-throwing-insurrectionists-under-bus-what-does-his-base-think-afterwards/932766/96 "2021-02-18T11:15:20Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I got a kick out of reading that Rededit thread. Someone posted “At what point do we give up and start writing the number?”. That got me to thinking of what it would look like if the new flag had the number fifty-one in Roman numerals. The nutjobs would freak out thinking China had taken over! - Just tell them they have a choice-Roman or Arabic. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2021, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-defense-throwing-insurrectionists-under-bus-what-does-his-base-think-afterwards/932766/97 "2021-02-18T15:19:06Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > That got me to thinking of what it would look like if the new flag had the number fifty-one in Roman numerals. The nutjobs would freak out thinking China had taken over! Better 51 than 11 states in Roman numerals. At least given the guy currently in power over there. 😉 if we add enough states I suppose we could switch to putting just the number there in Roman or conventional numerals, but form the strokes from small stars, dot matrix style. It won’t be the correct number, but it doesn’t need to be. That’ll satisfy the traditionalists. Yeah, right it will! 🙂 This raises an interesting question. On any US flag from the original Betsy Ross design to today, does any particular star officially represent any particular state? Or is it e.g. 13 stars for 13 states but no specific connection between _a_ star and _a_ state? I could see somebody arguing the stars should be “read” left-to-right & top-to-bottom in order of accession to the USA. Or some other organizing scheme. But is that official anywhere? ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2021, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-defense-throwing-insurrectionists-under-bus-what-does-his-base-think-afterwards/932766/98 "2021-02-18T15:47:21Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > This raises an interesting question. On any US flag from the original Betsy Ross design to today, does any particular star officially represent any particular state? Weirdly enough, I have an answer to this question and the answer is “no”. The number of stars represents the number of states but no star represents any particular state. The problem with this answer is it comes from an unreliable source (Uncle John’s Bathroom Reader) but I have no reason to believe it’s wrong about this particular question. Just that it’s not especially careful about fact checking generally. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2021, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-defense-throwing-insurrectionists-under-bus-what-does-his-base-think-afterwards/932766/99 "2021-02-18T16:12:41Z")
There is definitely a point where flying a flag crosses from simple patriotism or ornamentation and goes into making a political statement. A standard flag on the porch any day of the year doesn’t tell me anything about who you are, nor does a flag on a small pole in rural settings. When you get to giant flags, or worse yet mounting flags on a vehicle, that much more often than not tells me that you’re a right wing extremist. A flag with a blue stripe tells me that you love law and order and love love love police, except of course those cops whom your fellow extremists murder when trying to overturn an election. Flying the Gadsden flag tells me instantly that you’re an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2021, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-defense-throwing-insurrectionists-under-bus-what-does-his-base-think-afterwards/932766/100 "2021-02-18T16:16:28Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Flying the Gadsden flag tells me instantly that you’re an asshole. And the Betsy Ross flag? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-defense-throwing-insurrectionists-under-bus-what-does-his-base-think-afterwards/932766.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-defense-throwing-insurrectionists-under-bus-what-does-his-base-think-afterwards/932766.md?page=6)