This is a very confusing thread.
Baffling and silly where the adjectives that came to my mind, but YMMV.
Trump was the inspiration for arch-bully Biff Tannen from Back to the Future, and that was on full display last night. Just because Biden was more of a Marty McFly rather than a George McFly in response doesn’t mean Trump wasn’t being a bully.
Trying to be the only voice that’s heard doesn’t make you right, it makes you a bully.
Failing to bully a given individual does not make you any less of a bully.
Though being a “failure at bullying” is pretty pathetic.
I (and many others) consider Trump to be a bully. If you disagree, I’m not interested in trying to convince you. A great many voters appear to think being a bully is a desrable trait in a President.
During the debate, he was acting as a bully acts. Is there a semantic distinction between “acting like a bully” and “bullying”? Perhaps. But given the cartoonish nature of what passes for political discourse these days, good luck clarifying that distinction, and even more luck convincing anyone that it matters.
I can get on board with the idea that normal insults pertaining to civility, intelligence, or kindness do not persuade Trump supporters because they don’t actually care about those things.
To them, calling Trump a bully is a compliment, and they draw no distinction between failed bullying and completed bullying. If you landed a cheap shot and your opponent carps about it, then congratulations, you succeeded.
If you agree with that analysis, then Democrats should cease attacks that make Trump seem stronger and more powerful (bullying), and favor diminishing and humiliating attacks.
Biden will never go this far, but an effective tack would be to highlight that Trump is broke, fat, ugly, unpopular, weak, and flailing. It would not be a bridge too far to say “some very attractive models, very popular ones, have confirmed that Trump is not exactly gifted downstairs. His penis is unusually small, if you take my meaning.”
Trump is racing to the bottom. He’s taking us there whether we like it or not. May as well get there first and have some knockout punches ready to hit him in the only place that hurts him (his small penis, if you take my meaning).
Biden should absolutely not start talking about Trump’s penis. (Not that he’s going to; Biden does have some sense.)
What might work is ‘Are you afraid to let me talk?’ followed, at each further interruption, with ‘Yes, you’re afraid to let me talk / afraid to let the voters hear me.’ That attacks the specific bad behavior, while presenting Trump as a coward and Biden as in a position of strength. – it would probably also infuriate Trump. This is a game in which the person who loses their temper loses.
I am obviously 1000% in Biden’s camp, but in fact the only reason I watched the debates was to try my best to ‘see’ the candidates as low-information ‘undecided’ voters might view them. Obviously I can’t do that completely, as I am biased, but if you watch these ‘undecideds’ in interviews and focus groups, a few things stand out:
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They actually take themselves and their vote very seriously, maybe even a little too seriously. They’re stressed out about this choice of theirs. They’re afraid of selecting the wrong guy. They’re afraid that they’ll be kicking themselves the next 4 years if they’re not happy with the results of their choice. It seems easy to us, but not to them because they don’t really like politics. They like to think of themselves as being neutral, fair, objective, apolitical. They’re not, of course, but they like to think in that way.
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They are most likely not looking at any specific policies of the candidates; they are looking at their personalities, which leads into my next point. They might say things like “Well yeah, I think healthcare is a great idea, but I want someone who’s gonna be good for the country as a whole, not just one issue.” It sounds reasonable until you dig deeper and realize that they don’t really know the positions and voting behavior of each party.
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They are going to go with ‘gut instincts’. They view the candidates in the same way they view a real estate agent or a car salesman. They are trying to figure out if they trust that person. They will look at the way they dress. They will look at their eye contact. They will look at their body language. From the POV of persuadable voters, they’re not watching a debate between two candidates for president; they’re watching sales pitches or presentations from salesmen. They’re seeing this whole process completely differently than the way we’re looking at it.
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They may decide not to vote at all. If they don’t like Trump, that doesn’t mean they will vote for Biden. They might be so disgusted with the entire process of democracy, they might be so overwhelmed by the process of trying to judge who has the right characteristics to lead, they may just check out altogether.
When you look at it in this way, I think voters may have been turned off by Trump’s bullying, but they still tuned in to see how he would react to it. And chances are, this put Biden in a lose-lose situation. If Biden lowers his head, struggles to formulate responses, and looks rattled, that works against Biden because no American - no matter how partisan - wants to imagine a president taking on a Vladimir Putin or Xi Jinping and getting rattled like that. So that works against Biden. At the same time, there are some who have said in the days since that they didn’t like it when Biden said “Shut up, man.” or when he called the President a ‘liar’. And the reason they didn’t is that Biden has the burden of being presidential while simultaneously being somehow strong enough to deal with Trump’s bullying. It’s an additional psychological and cognitive burden for Joe Biden coming into any debate. Everyone knows that Trump is a jerk - they expect it. But they expect Biden to be different, to elevate the discourse, which is hard to do when you’ve got a yapper like Trump.
Trying to return to our regularly scheduled thread.
The Trumpers think bullying is Good and shows Strength. So when mainstream media say “Trump was a bully” they hear “Trump won over wimpy Biden. Yaay!”
If you’re a D who’s thinking sorta-strategically, you’ll see that narrative is unhelpful since it means to Trumpers the opposite of what it means to a non-Trumper: “Trump resorts to bullying because he’s a one trick pony who couldn’t articulate a policy, much less debate one.”
What the media ought to be saying is “Trump tried to bully Biden, but Biden rose above the childish ineffectual taunts.”
That’s a message non-Trumpers can enjoy hearing that will also discomfit the Trumpers a smidgen, if only by provoking them to throw things at their TVs while shouting “That’s a lie! Trump Rulez!”
I must agree. That means they won’t change their vote. It is edepressingv that some Americans behave that way.
I think you people need to rewatch the debate. Biden was attempting to enumerate his bullet points, and was successful with number one. Then he said number two, and did not verbalize anything before saying number three. Trump was just pointing out that he still needed to talk about his second point.
Here’s the transcript.
(27:13)… second point I’d make to you, is that when Floyd was killed, when Mr. Floyd was killed, there was a peaceful protest in front of the White House. What did he do? He came out of his bunker, had the military use tear gas on them so he could walk across to a church and hold up a Bible. And then what happened after that? The Bishop of that very church said that it was a disgrace. The general who was with him said all he ever wants to do is divide people, not unite people at all. This is a president who has used everything as a dog whistle, to try to generate racists hatred, racist division.
Seems like a lot of not verbalizing. There no attempt at a point three in the transcript that I could find. Can you point it out?
They’re complete idiots and nobody should waste time trying to get them, because they can’t be secured. A leaf falling on their windshield on the way to the polls, or the parking spot they get, or a fucking gif could change their minds. How shit-brained do you have to be to not have made a choice yet.
But these dithering dolts will decide the election - they kinda always have. There’s an eye test, and Biden has to make sure that he passes it. I don’t think he has to do or say anything magical, but he has to avoid any situation that’s a lose-lose. I’m not saying he shouldn’t continue with debates at all, but he should definitely avoid that same format that was used on Tuesday. He needs to get the Commission to enforce the rules in ways that are absolute and that Trump can’t hack with his asshattery.
Vice President Joe Biden: (21:06)
Number three.
President Donald J. Trump: (21:07)
They said it would take… No, you’re on number two.
I was searching o the word “point”.
Speaking of which, what’s your point?
It is wrong to suggest Our President made an poop insult to Biden. He saw a confused elderly person misspeak and kindly redirected him back on track.
What the fuck were you watching?
Ok, it was not kind, you got me.