# Trump does something right **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 19, 2018, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-does-something-right/826374 "2018-12-19T16:17:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-does-something-right/826374/41 "2018-12-20T13:56:22Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > So Russia has officially won in Syria. Putin’s man in the White House always delivers when it matters! 😃 I don’t think Syria was ever going to be a win for American interests, but we had to get involved to stem the flow of ISIS fighters into areas that were under more of our direct influence. The problem is, ISIS isn’t dead. ISIS is an idea. The ISIS fighters still exist; they’re just laying low and figuring out new ways to launder money, and they’re looking for new places to wreak havoc. Syria will have areas that will be difficult for Assad to control, which is most likely where ISIS will regenerate. Afghanistan might be another. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-does-something-right/826374/42 "2018-12-20T14:26:24Z")
> [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](#): > > Forums poster **XT** : manages to write like a novella’s worth of rambling about Syria while freely admitting he doesn’t even know or care to know what Turkey’s position is. I said I wasn’t sure. That doesn’t equate to not caring. Turkey’s position is complex, and while I know a little about it I don’t pretend to understand even the basic currents that are flowing through it these days. What I do know is that the Turks are more concerned with Kurds than anything else, either their own or those in Iraq and Syria. In addition, I know they do allow us to use basing in their country, which is a pretty big concession, and that they were very willing to go after ISIS/ISIL in Syria. Then there is the Erdogan and his party. So, instead of a drive by about my ‘novella’ and incorrectly saying I don’t care, feel free to expound on all the stuff I’m missing about Turkey (or Syria, or Russia, or Iran or even Trump…knock yourself out). ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-does-something-right/826374/43 "2018-12-20T15:39:39Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > _shrug_ _universelle_ and _internationale_ are distinct words in French. Yes indeed, so very clever of you to understand. Also the international postal union is the functional description - it is indeed that - and the legal name is another thing. > [@](#): > > Kudos for correcting your own mistranslation. it is funny, the inability to differentiate between a descriptive and a proper name. > [@](#): > > _shrug_ “We’ve always done it this way” is not an argument. Next. Neither is non arguments. There is a current issue about an imbalance relative to the rate settings coordination with some Asian countries. Not with all countries, but between the developed markets and some Asian countries. Unless you bizarrely think the sole function of the institution is just setting and coordinating those rates and not its many other functions or even the question of the international coordination. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Are you likewise curious about reasons to stay in it? What’s your position? the reasons for staying in are clear, and it is irrational to quit an insitution over a specific narrow problem - what would be rational and well considered is to ally with the other developed market members (and others feeling the developing Asian rates for the China notably are misset) to achieve a change. Of you can play the childish Go it Solo temper tantrum and instead of having allies, simply under cut your own position. But as Trump seems to excel in this last mode, it seems your preference here. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-does-something-right/826374/44 "2018-12-20T16:54:58Z")
Trump isn’t doing anything right. He’s simply replacing the mistakes of the past administration with his own. And I’m fairly certain that this pull out is a consequence of John Kelly quitting. (Wow, this thread is just like Syria: a quagmire of conflicting interests. 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-does-something-right/826374/45 "2018-12-20T17:19:48Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Trump isn’t doing anything right. He’s simply replacing the mistakes of the past administration with his own. And I’m fairly certain that this pull out is a consequence of John Kelly quitting. > > (Wow, this thread is just like Syria: a quagmire of conflicting interests. 🙂 ) I honestly think this is Trump trying to deflect from the increasingly tight noose about his and his administrations neck. Most of his advisers, most of his political allies and a bunch of foreign allies have told him, repeatedly (he first brought this idiotic move up 6 months ago) that it was a bad move, but I think he sees this as something to muddy the waters and move the discussion away from his embattled administration and the domestic threats he’s facing with the Russia investigation. Plus, he did actually campaign on getting us out of foreign entanglements, so he probably sees this as another bone for his base and those who voted for him. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-does-something-right/826374/46 "2018-12-20T17:44:47Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I honestly think this is Trump trying to deflect from the increasingly tight noose about his and his administrations neck. Most of his advisers, most of his political allies and a bunch of foreign allies have told him, repeatedly (he first brought this idiotic move up 6 months ago) that it was a bad move, but I think he sees this as something to muddy the waters and move the discussion away from his embattled administration and the domestic threats he’s facing with the Russia investigation. Plus, he did actually campaign on getting us out of foreign entanglements, so he probably sees this as another bone for his base and those who voted for him. I agree with you. I think John Kelly was the last thing keeping him from doing it. I also think Trump is misjudging his base, who are not going to be happy that our troops are going to stop shooting dark-skinned, Muslim terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-does-something-right/826374/47 "2018-12-20T17:54:25Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I’m sure you do think that. Our intervention in Afghanistan promoted the rise of Islamic terrorism, since we directly funded the predecessors of Al-Qaida, including one Osama bin Laden. If we had just stayed out of it, the world would have been better off. If the Soviets turned Afghanistan into a parking lot in the process, I don’t care. > [@](#): > > The Iraq war had a direct impact on the subsequent cluster fuck in Syria. Sadly, you seem to understand as much about the roots of what happened and is happening in Syria as you do about the Soviet invasion and occupation in Afghanistan. And I mean that sincerely…it’s really, really sad. The only impact the Iraq War had on Syria was funneling the AQI insurgents from Iraq into Syria. Assad’s decision to kill his own people and start a civil war had absolutely nothing to do with them. Then those same AQI losers took advantage of the security vacuum ASSAD created to launch ISIS. If Assad hadn’t started a civil war, or if the Iraqis hadn’t alienated the Sunni after the US withdrawal, ISIS wouldn’t have appeared. > [@](#): > > We HAVE changed the outcome in Syria as we have been instrumental in destroying ISIS/ISIL. Last I checked, Assad still owns Syria and ISIS’s remaining territorial “caliphate” is a very narrow slice of the MERV. If we want to keep fighting ISIS, we can do it from our locations in Iraq. > [@](#): > > In addition, we HAVE changed the outcome as Syria is now a lot more wary of using chemical or biological weapons on it’s own population. I don’t care. > [@](#): > > And we HAVE been instrumental in reining in the Russians and their attacks on anyone who is opposed to the government. So, your assertion that we won’t change anything in the future if we just bolt are, as with your others, based on your non-understanding of either the history or the geo-politics happening in all of this. ??? So the fuck what??? Putin still kills people with impunity, Russia practically owns Syria, and frankly I don’t care if he turns the place into a graveyard. Obama was never interested in anything that happened in Syria, he never actually wanted to win, and Trump is just admitting what everyone else already knows. > [@](#): > > Ah, so you concede that there was a mission. No shit. > [@](#): > > And you assert that the mission is now over. At least that’s something. It’s wrong, but it’s something. Even if that was the only mission, it’s not over as ISIS isn’t defeated yet…they are just in retreat. And you know where they retreated to? Tiny little rural villages in Al-Anbar. Duh. They are now a clandestine insurgency, which means we are no longer the best tool to combat them. Counterinsurgencies are won by local security forces exerting government power at the micro-level. If you understood the situation AT ALL you’d realize this is the point where Syrians and Iraqis take responsibility and our best course of action is to LET THEM. > [@](#): > > Yeah, I get that. You don’t even care enough to get a cursory understanding of this stuff before wading into a thread and giving your opinion on this stuff. Holy shit, you really have no idea what I do for a living, do you? Huh. > [@](#): > > Why no…my argument is a bit more nuanced that we should deny something that Russia wants because reasons. As I’ve given several, it’s either a bit disingenuous of you to assert this (and you think folks can’t, you know, scroll up), or you don’t care enough to even recall what you are responding too. > > Your assertion seems to be that we should give into Russia (as we should have to the Soviets) because…well, I don’t know why. Because you guess is about it. Would be better for the world, somehow…or something. > > We actually do gain stuff from being in Syria. We are a check on Syria and Assad, on Russia and on Iran. While we are there they don’t have a free hand in being as brutal as they would otherwise be. We gain status with our allies and in the region by staying as well. We gain status with the folks we are helping, even though they are doing most of the fighting and dying because we are helping them and we are there. We are in a position to actually affect things, instead of being on the sidelines with our thumbs up our asses and hoping things turn out ok and that not too many horrible war crimes happen. So, we gain a lot and for a very little. We have a very small footprint in Syria, yet it has a huge, disproportionate impact on a bunch of different levels. > > Hell, the fact that freaking Trump wants to do it alone SHOULD be a fucking red flag for some of you. Yes, even a stopped clock is right twice a day, but sadly Trump isn’t even that good. If you know nothing more than you seem to know about this you should understand that at least…if it’s something Trump is saying he wants to do then it’s almost certainly wrong AND stupid. I find it abjectly hilarious that you follow your paragraph above with this. “If Trump wants it, it must be bad, because… Reasons.” Yeah. Okay. Syria was not our interest, it never was, and it never will be. I’m MUCH more concerned with Iranian influence over Iraq, although at this point I can barely manage to care about that. > [@](#): > > instead of being on the sidelines with our thumbs up our asses and hoping things turn out ok and that not too many horrible war crimes happen. Why would I care about any of that? I don’t care if Assad gasses every man, woman, and child in that place. I’ve got friends deploying to Syria in the very near future, for no apparent reason any of them can understand. I mean, you get that the At-Tanf Garrison serves no strategic or tactical purpose except to piss in Russia’s Cheerios? And Manbij is barely more relevant than that. If the Orange-Shit-For-Brains is going to get them out of place they had no business being in the first place, GOOD. I’m fed the fuck up with seeing Americans die in shitty corners of the world trying to help people who hate us. Let Russia do whatever they want in Syria. Let them fight ISIS’s remnants on that side of the border. They can pick up the tab for putting it back together if they feel like it. Unless Trump suddenly decides to fix the State Department and dump resources into fighting Iranian influence, we are wasting our time there, too. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-does-something-right/826374/48 "2018-12-20T18:07:10Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > Our intervention in Afghanistan promoted the rise of Islamic terrorism, since we directly funded the predecessors of Al-Qaida, including one Osama bin Laden. Totally false, that sort of shit has been going on since Lawrence of Arabia- if not before. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-does-something-right/826374/49 "2018-12-20T18:17:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Totally false, that sort of shit has been going on since Lawrence of Arabia- if not before. No fucking duh. But Al Qaeda was the most recent iteration of it, and we are complicit in it by helping him. I said we _promoted_ Islamic terrorism, not that we _created_ it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-does-something-right/826374/50 "2018-12-20T18:43:16Z")
I am not sure what I think about the withdrawal. The rationale I have heard is that we should stay until ISIS has been completely destroyed. Is that significantly different from saying we can never pull out? Maybe the Kurds and the rebels are screwed, but 2000 troops aren’t going to un-screw them, and there are no good guys in Syria. Assad is bad, ISIS is worse, the only good thing to say about the rebels is “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”. If we pull out, it will be bad, if we don’t, it will be bad in a different way, and maybe for longer. I’m no isolationist, but can you _ever_ say “Mission Accomplished” in the Middle East? We’re still in Afghanistan, for heaven’s sake. “Trump’s doing it, so it must be wrong” is not much of an insight. YMMV. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-does-something-right/826374/51 "2018-12-20T18:46:05Z")
I think the question of whether or not not having troops in Syria is a reasonable debate on which well informed people can disagree. However a question on which I don’t think that any well informed person would up disagree is whether and leaving on a whim via tweet without prior consultation with our allies or preparations for smooth transition is a good thing. But this is Trump’s modus operandi make a decision with his gut, wash his hands of the whole affair and leave someone else clean up the mess, which in this case is could easily to be a genocide the likes of which haven’t been seen since Rwanda. But I guess they’re all Muslims so fuck 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-does-something-right/826374/52 "2018-12-20T20:27:19Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > What we gain by staying in Syria: > > 1. Control of oil fields via the Kurdish militia. > 2. A convenient excuse to weaken Turkey everytime they threaten the Kurdish militia. > 3. Territory we can use as a base of operations in the Middle East because Turkey is an unstable ally. > 4. Actually defeating ISIS in Syria and Iraq. You think we’d learn in the past 17 years that defeating a terrorist organization is a generational conflict, but I guess not. Remember this when ISIS-inspired terrorism is on the upswing in the US and Europe in the coming years. > 5. Prevent Iran from gaining even more power in the Middle East than they already have. > 6. Prevent Russia from gaining even more power in the Middle East than they already have. > 7. Prevent Assad from gaining even more power in the Middle East than he already has. > 8. Prevent Erdogan from gaining even more power in the Middle East than he already has. > 9. We’ll look like a reliable partner to those groups that assist us, who make all the sacrifices while fighting our enemies. > 10. We’ll prevent the genocide / ethnic cleansing that is inevitable when Turkey invades Northern Syria. > > What do we lose by staying in Syria: > > 1. A relatively small amount of money relative to our GDP. > 2. A few American lives. Americans who are volunteering to defend the USA versus the much larger number of American civilians killed by ISIS. > > I didn’t think I could feel more shame for my country than when we invaded Iraq for no reason, but I guess I was wrong. This. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-does-something-right/826374/53 "2018-12-20T21:42:35Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > it is funny, the inability to differentiate between a descriptive and a proper name. Indeed it is humorous but probably not in the way that you’re thinking. The UPU is _an_ international postal union. It’s correct to say that if you wish, but nobody does. And nobody calls it _the_ international postal union. There’s no shame in admitting you misspoke about an unfamiliar thing. I freely admit I was ignorant on the subject until a couple of months ago when the news hit the wire. > [@](#): > > Of you can play the childish Go it Solo temper tantrum and instead of having allies, simply under cut your own position. But as Trump seems to excel in this last mode, it seems your preference here. “You like what Trump likes” is not an argument. Generally I am not a fan of Trump’s habit of taking the ball and going home. It’s almost always stupid and destructive. In the case of the UPU, we’re talking about a case where it takes a majority of 192 countries to agree on a change, which is incredibly difficult, and an additional 18 months to implement after getting such an agreement. In a case where the bulk of the benefit is going to China, and it’s so hard to get an agreement, walking away is a reasonable thing for the world’s largest (or 2nd largest) economy to do. Reality bears out this position. The UPU has agreed to expedite the rate changes in response to Trump’s pullout threat. This is not a credit to a negotiating strategy that has failed almost everywhere else, just a nod to the fact that this is a situation of the stopped clock being right twice a day. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-does-something-right/826374/54 "2018-12-21T01:11:43Z")
Well, James Mattis thinks it is a bad enough move to quit over it. I don’t know enough to have a strong opinion, but what do y’all think of this argument: Who are you going to trust, Trump or Mattis? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-does-something-right/826374/55 "2018-12-21T01:19:42Z")
I’ll note that a thief wants to own and take more. That’s why Putin is out trying to grab territory. One should ask why President Kleptomaniac / He Who So Aggressively Attempts to Grow His Businesses as to be in Constant Debt prefers a smaller, weaker, and less influential domain to control. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-does-something-right/826374/56 "2018-12-21T01:40:54Z")
This just frustrates the shit out of me. For the last 18 years I’ve just heard a constant litany of people screaming about how we’re all warmongering imperialist racists with our automated flying death-bots murdering schoolchildren and reporters, and how we should just get out of Iraq and Afghanistan and everything else, and how we’ve done nothing but make the world worse with our genocides and our coups and getting involved in other people’s wars. And now Trump says, “We’re done with Syria,” and everyone is screaming, “We can’t leave! We’re abandoning our allies! We’re letting Russia take control! Assad will do bad things!” So what the fuck is it? Are we global imperialist interventionists this week or not? Am I supposed to suddenly care whether we stay in Syria when I spent two decades listening to people tell me I’m an evil criminal warmonger??? WTF? ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-does-something-right/826374/57 "2018-12-21T01:43:29Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > But I guess they’re all Muslims so fuck 'em. Have you ever been to Kosovo?? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-does-something-right/826374/58 "2018-12-21T01:53:05Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > Have you ever been to Kosovo?? Woosh! I guess it wasn’t obvious that that was meant to indicate Trump’s level of concern. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-does-something-right/826374/59 "2018-12-21T02:05:43Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Woosh! > > I guess it wasn’t obvious that that was meant to indicate Trump’s level of concern. No, and I’m sorry. But I’ve met so many people who would say that and mean it absolutely literally. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-does-something-right/826374/60 "2018-12-21T02:17:16Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > This just frustrates the shit out of me. For the last 18 years I’ve just heard a constant litany of people screaming about how we’re all warmongering imperialist racists with our automated flying death-bots murdering schoolchildren and reporters, and how we should just get out of Iraq and Afghanistan and everything else, and how we’ve done nothing but make the world worse with our genocides and our coups and getting involved in other people’s wars. > > And now Trump says, “We’re done with Syria,” and everyone is screaming, “We can’t leave! We’re abandoning our allies! We’re letting Russia take control! Assad will do bad things!” > > So what the fuck is it? Are we global imperialist interventionists this week or not? Am I supposed to suddenly care whether we stay in Syria when I spent two decades listening to people tell me I’m an evil criminal warmonger??? WTF? I don’t know about others, but I might suggest that different voices are speaking now than the ones that you read before. I have always supported globalism, nation building, and world policing. The SDMB is not a monolithic whole. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-does-something-right/826374.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-does-something-right/826374.md?page=4)