# "Trump Foundation lacks the certification required for charities that solicit money" **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 30, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-foundation-lacks-the-certification-required-for-charities-that-solicit-money/767297 "2016-09-30T18:37:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-foundation-lacks-the-certification-required-for-charities-that-solicit-money/767297/61 "2016-10-04T21:43:32Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Or they didn’t give a crap what he spent the money on and were just giving money to curry favor with the Donald. Which of those three reasons do you think is the most likely? Those are still just two reasons. Whether they knew or not covers 100% of the possibilities. Whether they cared or not is a different axis, one I myself don’t give much of a crap about. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-foundation-lacks-the-certification-required-for-charities-that-solicit-money/767297/62 "2016-10-04T21:52:21Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Those are still just two reasons. Whether they knew or not covers 100% of the possibilities. Whether they cared or not is a different axis, one I myself don’t give much of a crap about. Don’t give a crap all you like but characterizing it as “participating in decieving the IRS” is bullshit. If they honestly thought it was a legitimately registered charity but only donated to make Trump happy then that’s just as fair as people donating to a charity because George Clooney is the spokesman. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-foundation-lacks-the-certification-required-for-charities-that-solicit-money/767297/63 "2016-10-04T22:00:42Z")
And if they DIDN’T think it was a legitimately registered charity, yet claimed tax deductions anyway, they participated in (and benefited from) deceiving the IRS. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-foundation-lacks-the-certification-required-for-charities-that-solicit-money/767297/64 "2016-10-04T22:03:10Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > And if they DIDN’T think it was a legitimately registered charity, yet claimed tax deductions anyway, they participated in (and benefited from) deceiving the IRS. Thank you for your service, Cpt. Obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-foundation-lacks-the-certification-required-for-charities-that-solicit-money/767297/65 "2016-10-04T23:02:24Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > > [@Merneith](#): > > > > All of the money coming from the Foundation was coming from donors who believed it would be spent on charity. They weren’t told that their donations would be used to further Donald’s personal political ambitions. > > Frankly, I doubt that. > [@CarnalK](#): > > Or they didn’t give a crap what he spent the money on and were just giving money to curry favor with the Donald. Which of those three reasons do you think is the most likely? Their motivations are actually not the point and I didn’t mean to discuss the donors and their reasons for donating, although I obviously brought it up. I apologize for being confusing. The point I was trying to make is, the Donald J. Trump Foundation is a 501c3 charity. That means its fund are prohibited from being used for campaign purposes (regardless of what the donors know or care about.) See here: > **[501(c) organization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501(c)_organization#Political_activity)** > > A 501(c) organization is a nonprofit organization in the federal law of the United States according to Internal Revenue Code (26 U.S.C. § 501(c)). Such organizations are exempt from some federal income taxes. Sections 503 through 505 set out the requirements for obtaining such exemptions. Many states refer to Section 501(c) for definitions of organizations exempt from state taxation as well. 501(c) organizations can receive unlimited contributions from individuals, corporations, and unions. Fo... > [@wiki](#): > > **Political activity** > > Section 501(c)(3) organizations are prohibited from supporting political candidates, and are subject to limits on lobbying. They risk loss of tax exempt status if these rules are violated.[57][58] An organization that loses its 501(c)(3) status due to being engaged in political activities cannot then qualify for 501(c)(4) status. > > \*\*Elections > \*\* > Organizations described in section 501(c)(3) are prohibited from conducting political campaign activities to intervene in elections to public office.[61] The Internal Revenue Service website elaborates on this prohibition:[62] > > ``` > Under the Internal Revenue Code, all section 501(c)(3) organizations are absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office. Contributions to political campaign funds or public statements of position (verbal or written) made on behalf of the organization in favor of or in opposition to any candidate for public office clearly violate the prohibition against political campaign activity. Violating this prohibition may result in denial or revocation of tax-exempt status and the imposition of certain excise taxes. > > ``` It gets more complicated than that, because it’s the IRS. But that’s the point - funds given to a 501c are to be presumed to be prohibited from use in campaigning and most lobbying. If the 501c3 uses the funds for campaigning, say by donating them to a 501c4 (which _is_ allowed to use the funds for campaigning), then the 501c3 has misused their funds and risks losing their tax-exempt status. RCP has found at least one example of Trump’s 501c3 donating directly to a 501c4 charity, The Family Leader. RCP has also found several instances that appear to involve the 501c3 charity donating money in order for Trump to gain access and speaking engagements for campaign purposes (although this bit is still only alleged.) The story needs followup but it’s another example of the mounting problems faced by the Donald J. Trump Foundation. It could be the straw that leads to the Foundations closing and IRS fines or problems for Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-foundation-lacks-the-certification-required-for-charities-that-solicit-money/767297/66 "2016-10-05T00:07:54Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Don’t give a crap all you like but characterizing it as “participating in decieving the IRS” is bullshit. If they honestly thought it was a legitimately registered charity but only donated to make Trump happy then that’s just as fair as people donating to a charity because George Clooney is the spokesman. …right, which falls in my first category. The second category, the one that you called bullshit, is the one that kaylasdad just explained to you and you insulted him for. Wanna try getting things straight? Once more: EITHER donors knew what was happening, or they didn’t. Also, either they cared or they didn’t (your addendum). IF they knew what was happening, Captain Obvious reminds you that they were “participating in deceiving the IRS,” which ain’t no bullshit, the part you need to remember. IF they didn’t know what was happening, they weren’t participating in any such deception, the thing you think you’re educating us on but ironically is a bit Captain Obvious of you, given that that was implicit in the original post you’d responded to. IF they cared about whether it was a registered charity, that has fuckall to do with the question. IF they didn’t care about whether it was a registered charity, that similarly has fuckall to do with the question. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-foundation-lacks-the-certification-required-for-charities-that-solicit-money/767297/67 "2016-10-05T00:17:57Z")
And here’s why the question of donor knowledge matters: I’m not an attorney, natch. Judging from the bit I know, there are at least some financial penalties attached to knowingly, falsely claiming you’re making a charitable donation, when you’re really making a political donation or even making a gift to a buddy. I suspect but do not know if there are criminal penalties associated with such false claims. This means that the donors in question have a very vested interest in claiming ignorance of the nature of Trump’s “charity.” The very people who may have funneled money through the charity to support him are going to want to put serious daylight between themselves and Trump on this matter. And if they do that, it’s gonna look like he was deceiving those donors, which is gonna carry its own set of financial, possibly even criminal, penalties. Trump’s a pretty chill guy not prone to holding a grudge, but even the calmest sonofabitch would have a hard time with that sort of behavior from supposed friends. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-foundation-lacks-the-certification-required-for-charities-that-solicit-money/767297/68 "2016-10-06T21:09:24Z")
Any follow-up on New York ordering the Trump Foundation to cease fundraising there? Seems like that was a pretty big story. Has that story been bumped already by Trump’s instructions on how to pronounce “Nevada”? ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-foundation-lacks-the-certification-required-for-charities-that-solicit-money/767297/69 "2016-10-06T22:25:57Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Trump’s a pretty chill guy not prone to holding a grudge… Thanks, been a tough day. I needed that. The Pit never fails to provide some good guffaws at the end of the work day… ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-foundation-lacks-the-certification-required-for-charities-that-solicit-money/767297/70 "2016-10-06T22:29:29Z")
> [@digs](#): > > Thanks, been a tough day. I needed that. > The Pit never fails to provide some good guffaws at the end of the work day… :dubious: …and so does Elections, right? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-foundation-lacks-the-certification-required-for-charities-that-solicit-money/767297/71 "2016-10-06T23:03:30Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Any follow-up on New York ordering the Trump Foundation to cease fundraising there? Seems like that was a pretty big story. > > Has that story been bumped already by Trump’s instructions on how to pronounce “Nevada”? The Trump Foundation has not replied publicly. They have 15 days to come up with the correct documentation and provide audited financial statements for every year in which they’re delinquent (so, theoretically, all the years). The Foundation has to stop soliciting money in NY, but as far as I know, they’ve done so. At least, no one’s reported them for any solicitations since the order went out. So basically, it’s in a holding pattern. Financial games on this scale seldom proceed quickly. Hopefully, Hillary is prepared to turn the screws on this, come Sunday. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-foundation-lacks-the-certification-required-for-charities-that-solicit-money/767297/72 "2016-10-06T23:04:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > …right, which falls in my first category. The second category, the one that you called bullshit, is the one that kaylasdad just explained to you and you insulted him for. Wanna try getting things straight? > > Once more: > > EITHER donors knew what was happening, or they didn’t. Also, either they cared or they didn’t (your addendum). > > IF they knew what was happening, Captain Obvious reminds you that they were “participating in deceiving the IRS,” which ain’t no bullshit, the part you need to remember. > > IF they didn’t know what was happening, they weren’t participating in any such deception, the thing you think you’re educating us on but ironically is a bit Captain Obvious of you, given that that was implicit in the original post you’d responded to. > > IF they cared about whether it was a registered charity, that has fuckall to do with the question. > > IF they didn’t care about whether it was a registered charity, that similarly has fuckall to do with the question. No matter how many times you say 3=2, it’s wrong. Up until this election, most everyone assumed Trump Foundation was a legit, if rudderless, charity. If I donate to the New York Restoration Project to get into Marisa Tomei’s pants, the IRS is fine with that. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-foundation-lacks-the-certification-required-for-charities-that-solicit-money/767297/73 "2016-10-06T23:07:51Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > No matter how many times you say 3=2, it’s wrong. Up until this election, most everyone assumed Trump Foundation was a legit, if rudderless, charity. You do not appear to understand the post you quoted, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-foundation-lacks-the-certification-required-for-charities-that-solicit-money/767297/74 "2016-10-06T23:24:46Z")
I think I do. He’s saying there’s two spectrums, how much you know and how much you care. He specifically said he doesn’t care about one of those spectrums. He also called me to task for saying knowingly aiding tax fraud was obviously wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-foundation-lacks-the-certification-required-for-charities-that-solicit-money/767297/75 "2016-10-07T00:00:30Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > No matter how many times you say 3=2, it’s wrong. What on earth do you think I’m saying that’s wrong? You’re very aggressively and crankily agreeing with everything I’ve said. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-foundation-lacks-the-certification-required-for-charities-that-solicit-money/767297/76 "2016-10-07T02:01:27Z")
I’ve been seeing that “15 days” number for several days, now. When did the clock start ticking on that? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-foundation-lacks-the-certification-required-for-charities-that-solicit-money/767297/77 "2016-10-07T02:08:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’ve been seeing that “15 days” number for several days, now. When did the clock start ticking on that? **bobot** (post 52) linked the story of the shut down order. The clock started on Oct. 3. [Linked again.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-foundation-ordered-to-stop-fundraising-by-ny-attorney-generals-office/2016/10/03/1d4d295a-8987-11e6-bff0-d53f592f176e_story.html) Amusing quote. > [@](#): > > Trump campaign spokeswoman Hope Hicks responded in a written statement: **“While we remain very concerned about the political motives behind AG Schneiderman’s investigation** , the Trump Foundation nevertheless intends to cooperate fully with the investigation. Because this is an ongoing legal matter, the Trump Foundation will not comment further at this time.” Wee bit paranoid, are we? ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-foundation-lacks-the-certification-required-for-charities-that-solicit-money/767297/78 "2016-10-07T02:21:25Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > No matter how many times you say 3=2, it’s wrong. Up until this election, most everyone assumed Trump Foundation was a legit, if rudderless, charity. If I donate to the New York Restoration Project to get into Marisa Tomei’s pants, the IRS is fine with that. If you donate to Trump (not the Foundation, but just hand cash to DJT) and call it a charitable deduction on your return, knowing that it’s a political donation, do you think the IRS will care about that? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-foundation-lacks-the-certification-required-for-charities-that-solicit-money/767297/79 "2016-10-07T02:52:05Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > If you donate to Trump (not the Foundation, but just hand cash to DJT) and call it a charitable deduction on your return, knowing that it’s a political donation, do you think the IRS will care about that? Yes. How is that not obvious? Have I said something that makes you think that I think that’s not obvious? ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-foundation-lacks-the-certification-required-for-charities-that-solicit-money/767297/80 "2016-10-07T03:12:52Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Yes. How is that not obvious? Have I said something that makes you think that I think that’s not obvious? SO either you know or you don’t know that it’s not a legitimate charity. Whether you care or not- not really relevant. If you know, and claim it as a charitable donation, that’s fraud, right? Is it fraud if you didn’t know that it wasn’t really a charitable donation and claimed it as such? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-foundation-lacks-the-certification-required-for-charities-that-solicit-money/767297.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-foundation-lacks-the-certification-required-for-charities-that-solicit-money/767297.md?page=5)