# Trump, Giuliani and others sued under Ku Klux Klan law **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 16, 2021, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-giuliani-and-others-sued-under-ku-klux-klan-law/933068 "2021-02-16T22:02:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2021, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-giuliani-and-others-sued-under-ku-klux-klan-law/933068/1 "2021-02-16T22:02:48Z")
Congressman Bennie Thompson (D-MS) has sued Trump, Giuliani, Proud Boys, Oath Keepers for inciting or participating in the riot, and attempting to prevent members of Congress from fulfilling their duties. The federal law in question was enacted during Reconstruction to prevent groups like the KKK from trying to intimidate members of Congress. The suit is supported by the NAACP. > **[Trump, Giuliani sued in federal court over role in Capitol riot | CBC News](https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5915344)** > > A Democratic congressman accused Donald Trump in a federal lawsuit on Tuesday of inciting the deadly insurrection at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6 and of conspiring with his lawyer and extremist groups to try to prevent the Senate from certifying the... ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2021, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-giuliani-and-others-sued-under-ku-klux-klan-law/933068/2 "2021-02-16T22:06:33Z")
Excellent news. IANAL, but this looks like a very smart lawsuit. ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2021, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-giuliani-and-others-sued-under-ku-klux-klan-law/933068/3 "2021-02-16T22:15:29Z")
Wunnerful! ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2021, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-giuliani-and-others-sued-under-ku-klux-klan-law/933068/4 "2021-02-16T22:55:16Z")
This is a little disappointing. My reading of OP was that the KKK were suing under one of their Wizards statutes. I thought “Wow, some of Trumps base really are ticked off”. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-giuliani-and-others-sued-under-ku-klux-klan-law/933068/5 "2021-02-17T02:44:01Z")
As I said in the other thread, I hope they can tag a RICO charge onto this. It’s a very powerful law that’s really been underused. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-giuliani-and-others-sued-under-ku-klux-klan-law/933068/6 "2021-02-17T02:57:16Z")
Okay, this is worth quoting. Here is the relevant section of the Enforcement Act of 1871: > That if two or more persons within any State or Territory of the United States shall conspire together to overthrow, or to put down, or to destroy by force the government of the United States, or to levy war against the United States, or to oppose by force the authority of the government of the United States, or by force, intimidation, or threat to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, or by force, intimidation, or threat to prevent any person from accepting or holding any office or trust or place of confidence under the United States, or from discharging the duties thereof, or by force, intimidation, or threat to induce any officer of the United States to leave any State, district, or place where his duties as such office might lawfully be performed, or to injure him in his person or property on account of his lawful discharge of the duties of his office, or to injure his person while engaged in the lawful discharge of the duties of his office, or to injure his property so as to molest, interrupt, hinder, or impede him in the discharge of his official duty, or by force, intimidation, or threat to deter any party or witness in any court of the United States from attending such court, or from testifying in any matter pending in such court fully, freely, and truthfully, or to injure any such party or witness in his person or property on account of his having so attended or testified, or by force, intimidation, or threat to influence the verdict, presentment, or indictment, of any juror or grand juror in any court of the United States, or to injure such juror in his person or property on account of any verdict, presentment, or indictment lawfully assented to by him, or on account of his being or having been such juror, or shall conspire together, or go in disguise upon the public highway or upon the premises of another for the purpose, either directly or indirectly, of depriving any person or any class of persons of the equal protection of the laws, or of equal privileges or immunities under the laws, or for the purpose of preventing or hindering the constituted authorities of any State from giving or securing to all persons within such State the equal protection of the laws, or shall conspire together for the purpose in any manner impeding, hindering, obstructing or defeating the due course of justice in an State or Territory, with intent to deny to any citizen of the United States the due and equal protection of the laws, or to injury any person in his person or his property for lawfully enforcing the right of any person or class of persons to the equal protection of the laws, or by force, intimidation, or threat to prevent any citizen of the United States lawfully entitled to vote from giving his support or advocacy in a lawful manner towards or in favor of the election of any lawfully qualified person as an elector of President or Vice-President of the United States, or as a member of the Congress of the United States, or to injure any such citizen in his person or property on account of such support or advocacy, each and every person so offending shall be deemed guilty of a high crime, and upon conviction thereof in any district or circuit court of the United States or district or supreme court of any Territory of the United States having jurisdiction of similar offences, shall be punished by a fine not less than five hundred nor more than five thousand dollars, or by imprisonment, with or without hard labor, as the court my determine, for a period of not less than six months nor more than six years, as the court may determine, or by both such fine and imprisonment as the court shall determine. Yes, that is a single sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-giuliani-and-others-sued-under-ku-klux-klan-law/933068/7 "2021-02-17T03:31:36Z")
Periods were very costly in the 19th century and used sparingly. ---
**Author:** ![TheGunIsMightierThanThePen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thegunismightierthanthepen/32/2981_2.png) [@TheGunIsMightierThanThePen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheGunIsMightierThanThePen)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-giuliani-and-others-sued-under-ku-klux-klan-law/933068/8 "2021-02-17T04:00:38Z")
The members of Congress in 1871 probably weren’t expecting this law to resurface 150 years later, but they really should’ve indexed the fine to inflation. ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-giuliani-and-others-sued-under-ku-klux-klan-law/933068/9 "2021-02-17T05:36:06Z")
Don’t get your collective hopes up about this. The laws on this are clear, and c’mon dudes, there’s only one of them: Consequences for Thee, not for We and certainly never Me. Power players don’t face meaningful legal ramifications ([“Hit me with a fine”](https://www.mpamag.com/news/dimon-hit-me-with-a-fine-we-can-afford-it-21959.aspx)). The idea that power players _do_ face consequences is most aptly dubbed an opiate for the masses: a dumb idea that sooths the plebian urge to grab the pitchforks and lets the powers that be continue playing the great game. He’ll get a slap on the wrist and _at most_ - given some extremely bizarre turn of events - possibly a few months in [a luxury prison cell](https://nypost.com/2017/03/10/even-prison-life-can-have-frills-if-you-have-the-cash/) with accommodations that would make the average Appalachian or ghetto kid turn green (assuming the [polluted water](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47165522) they’ve been drinking hasn’t already done so). I will be utterly _shocked_ if there are any serious consequences for this. Remember, [they still haven’t found a “suitable” judge for slapping the Flint Water guy’s wrist yet](https://www.michiganradio.org/post/judge-asked-disqualify-himself-flint-water-criminal-case). Though, come to think of it, I _can_ name one consequence: American Exceptionalism - we can just take that deluded idea out back and put it out of its misery. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-giuliani-and-others-sued-under-ku-klux-klan-law/933068/10 "2021-02-17T05:56:30Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Periods were very costly in the 19th century and used sparingly. Ellipsis was only available to the very wealthy, everyone else quoted in full. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-giuliani-and-others-sued-under-ku-klux-klan-law/933068/11 "2021-02-17T06:02:14Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Periods were very costly in the 19th century and used sparingly. But the output of the western comma mines had flooded the market. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-giuliani-and-others-sued-under-ku-klux-klan-law/933068/12 "2021-02-17T09:44:19Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > Power players don’t face meaningful legal ramifications ([“Hit me with a fine”](https://www.mpamag.com/news/dimon-hit-me-with-a-fine-we-can-afford-it-21959.aspx)). In general, I agree with your argument here, but there’s a unique parameter to Trump’s situation that makes the outcome rather less certain. Your linked example cites the CEO of a powerful corporation with its own dedicated in-house team of legal defenders. These highly-paid specialists are entirely capable of fending off, or at minimum complicating, any attempt by enforcement officials to hold the company accountable for its wrongdoing. Trump, by contrast, has alienated basically every reputable law firm in the country. No qualified attorneys are picking up Trump’s calls, and the few remaining existing business relationships are being actively severed. Trump has been reduced to scraping through the bottom of the barrel to find any clown in a power suit who’s willing to stand up in court on his behalf. The question, in other words, is whether or not it would be possible, in the abstract, to defend against such a lawsuit, absent any other context. The question is whether whatever legal representation Trump is able to muster in a practical real-world sense will be able to mount such an adequate defense. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-giuliani-and-others-sued-under-ku-klux-klan-law/933068/13 "2021-02-17T09:51:59Z")
Good point. What lawyer wants to act for a client who doesn’t follow your advice, is a habitual liar, snd then stiffs you? And on the other side, it looks like the NAACP is providing legal support for the plaintiff. NAACP has good lawyers, going all the way back to Thurgood Marshall in _Brown_. Not saying this would be an easy case for the plaintiff, but t it looks like serious civil litigation. And it can’t be stopped by a campaign donation to an Attorney General, the way Trump has got rid of other civil actions brought by government agencies in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-giuliani-and-others-sued-under-ku-klux-klan-law/933068/14 "2021-02-17T09:52:43Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Yes, that is a single sentence. I am so glad I do not have to translate this. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-giuliani-and-others-sued-under-ku-klux-klan-law/933068/15 "2021-02-17T10:08:26Z")
Argh, I left out a word that changes my meaning, and I’ve passed the edit window. > [@Cervaise](#): > > The question, in other words, is whether or not it would be possible, in the abstract, to defend against such a lawsuit, absent any other context. Corrected: > [@](#): > > The question, in other words, is _ **not** _ whether or not it would be possible, in the abstract, to defend against such a lawsuit, absent any other context. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-giuliani-and-others-sued-under-ku-klux-klan-law/933068/16 "2021-02-17T10:33:06Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > He’ll get a slap on the wrist and _at most_ - given some extremely bizarre turn of events - possibly a few months in a luxury prison cell … Since this is a civil action, it is not aimed at putting him in jail. It’s going after something more dear to him: his money. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-giuliani-and-others-sued-under-ku-klux-klan-law/933068/17 "2021-02-17T11:30:11Z")
I don’t know about Giuliani and Trump being guilty under this law. Partly because, as etasyde said above, they are rich white guys. But mostly because of their use of weasel words (for example Trump specifically said on Jan 6 “we will march peacefully”),So it will be hard to prove in court that they incited the riot.Trump could defend himself by quoting his own words. But it sure seems like this law is perfect for charging those 250 (so far!) people who actually entered the Capitol. And possibly all the others who were outside on the steps pushing to get in. The law specifically prohibits > [@](#): > > “force, intimidation, or threat to induce any officer of the United States to leave any place where his duties might lawfully be performed” The facts are clear: Your face is on film entering the Capitol , and all the congressmen did leave the place where they were lawfully performing their duties. What defense is possible against this charge? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-giuliani-and-others-sued-under-ku-klux-klan-law/933068/18 "2021-02-17T11:42:08Z")
I’m confused. The thread is about them being sued under this law, i.e., a civil case. But the law itself sure sounds like a criminal law. Which is it? It makes a big difference to the standard of evidence required, and whom you have to convince. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-giuliani-and-others-sued-under-ku-klux-klan-law/933068/19 "2021-02-17T11:54:14Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’m confused. The thread is about them being sued under this law, i.e., a civil case. But the law itself sure sounds like a criminal law. Which is it? I found this on wpedia: [42 U.S.C.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_42_of_the_United_States_Code) [§ 1983](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/1983) now reads:[[13]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Enforcement_Act#cite_note-13) > Every person who under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any [State](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._state) or [Territory](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territory_of_the_United_States) or the [District of Columbia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia), subjects, or causes to be subjected, any [citizen of the United States](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen_of_the_United_States) or other person within the [jurisdiction](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurisdiction) thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the [Constitution](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Constitution) and [laws](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_United_States), shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, Suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in [exceptions]. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-giuliani-and-others-sued-under-ku-klux-klan-law/933068/20 "2021-02-17T16:34:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’m confused. The thread is about them being sued under this law, i.e., a civil case. But the law itself sure sounds like a criminal law. Which is it? > > It makes a big difference to the standard of evidence required, and whom you have to convince. The basic principle is that the state can convict you in a criminal trial for committing a crime and send you to prison or fine you. And a victim of a crime can sue you in a civil trial for the damages you caused by committing a crime and seek financial reimbursement. So for example, let’s say I burn down your house. The state would charge me for arson and send me to prison. You, as the person whose house was burned down, could separately sure me for the cost of your house and possessions that were lost due to my actions. Generally, you wait until there’s been a conviction in a criminal court because that establishes that I committed the action that you’re suing me for. But it’s not strictly necessary. The O.J. Simpson trials provides a notable example of somebody being found not guilty of the criminal charges but subsequently losing the civil case. If I am understanding the case correctly, Congressman Thompson is suing Trump and Giuliani for damages he claims they caused him by inciting a riot that interfered with him performing his official duties. I feel that Thompson is attempting to present enough evidence of their guilt in a civil trial that it will then cause the government to take up the case and charge Trump and Giuliani in a criminal trial. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-giuliani-and-others-sued-under-ku-klux-klan-law/933068.md?page=2)