# Trump has been lying about how much money he makes. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 15, 2016, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-been-lying-about-how-much-money-he-makes/757473 "2016-06-15T22:55:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-been-lying-about-how-much-money-he-makes/757473/21 "2016-06-16T17:32:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t know how they would have access to everything they would need to make the estimate. But at the very least, I’d like to see a link to the article making that claim and see what methodology they used, what caveats they put on their number, etc. More often than not, I find that posters tend to leave out important details that are in the source material. It seems to me that if you wanted see the Forbes article on Trump’s net worth you could easily find it. Perhaps you really want to teach a passive aggressive lesson on how you would like people to post on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-been-lying-about-how-much-money-he-makes/757473/22 "2016-06-16T17:41:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t know how they would have access to everything they would need to make the estimate. But at the very least, I’d like to see a link to the article making that claim and see what methodology they used, what caveats they put on their number, etc. More often than not, I find that posters tend to leave out important details that are in the source material. [The Definitive Net Worth Of Donald Trump](http://www.forbes.com/donald-trump/#14fa2091790b)(Forbes) [Just How Rich Is Donald Trump?](http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/just-how-rich-is-donald-trump) (The New Yorker) ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-been-lying-about-how-much-money-he-makes/757473/23 "2016-06-16T17:43:29Z")
I’m not sure it matters too much after the first billion. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-been-lying-about-how-much-money-he-makes/757473/24 "2016-06-16T18:06:13Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > It seems to me that if you wanted see the Forbes article on Trump’s net worth you could easily find it. Perhaps you really want to teach a passive aggressive lesson on how you would like people to post on the internet. Ah, here we see The Straight Dopes long standing tradition of not backing up ones claim. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-been-lying-about-how-much-money-he-makes/757473/25 "2016-06-16T18:20:39Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Ah, here we see The Straight Dopes long standing tradition of not backing up ones claim. Uh, no we don’t. Read slower, drunky. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-been-lying-about-how-much-money-he-makes/757473/26 "2016-06-16T18:33:56Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > I’m not sure it matters too much after the first billion. It matters to Trump. He gets really upset if someone says he not as rich as he says he is. [Even took a reporter to court over it.](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/elections-2016-donald-trump-worth-reveals-in-deposition-tim-obrien-lawsuit-2006/) > [@](#): > > In 2005, New York Times reporter Tim O’Brien claimed in a book called “Trump Nation” that Trump was worth at best $250 million, when Trump and others said he was a billionaire. Trump sued the reporter for over $2 billion, but the lawsuit opened him up to a close scrutiny of his finances, reports CBS News correspondent Julianna Goldman. > [@](#): > > In 2014, Trump said his brand was worth $3.3 billion. Last year, Forbes magazine listed it at $125 million. > > Behind closed doors, Trump conceded property values are often subjective. > > “You said that the net worth goes up and down based upon your own feelings?” he was asked in the deposition. > > “Yes, even my own feelings, as to where the world is going, and that can change rapidly from day to day,” Trump responded. > [@](#): > > In the deposition, the attorney presented estimates of his net worth by two banks where Trump had applied for lines of credit. Both concluded Trump was worth about a third of the $3.5 billion he claimed in 2005. > > Trump said the numbers were wrong and the banks did not do an exhaustive search of his assets. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-been-lying-about-how-much-money-he-makes/757473/27 "2016-06-16T18:35:51Z")
It’s because he values his ‘name’ alone, as though it was worth many billions! And he was as much when pressed! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-been-lying-about-how-much-money-he-makes/757473/28 "2016-06-16T19:33:57Z")
Mark Cuban notes that he is splashing his brand on everything from hotels to cheap suits, which is a way of destroying the value of the brand - and something only a person in need of cash would do. Trump could very easily prove what his net worth really is. That he does not makes his words a bit suspect. (To put it mildly.) ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-been-lying-about-how-much-money-he-makes/757473/29 "2016-06-16T19:45:03Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Remember, part of his self-valuation is what he thinks his name is worth and that varies day to day. In other countries at least, the Trump name actually has a[negative valuation](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/05/27/torontos-trump-tower-for-sale.html): > [@](#): > > Toronto realtor David Fleming said a new owner would be wise to remove the name from the building at Bay and Adelaide Sts. as soon as possible and rebrand it. > > “Donald Trump and United States politics aside, the name Trump Tower in Toronto is synonymous with failure,” he said. “We’ve been watching this debacle for the last half-decade.” ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-been-lying-about-how-much-money-he-makes/757473/30 "2016-06-16T19:48:20Z")
I posted about this on May 15th. Page 3 of the Mystery of Trump’s Tax Returns. Start on post 103 and follow the discussion: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=792891&page=3](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=792891&page=3) Admittedly I said, “Maybe this deserves its own thread”. So here we are. If Trump is earning less than $500,000 per year, and he is worth a one billion dollars (he claims he is worth 10 billion), that would imply that his investments are spinning off less than one twentieth of 1 percent per year. That’s a very low return. The S&P 500 dividend is around 2.00% (vs less than 0.05% as per this calculation). Real estate investment trusts typically have higher dividends than the S&P 500. So I think it’s fair to say that Trump’s story doesn’t add up very well. There are lots of angles to this though, and I posted links in the other thread. The Trump campaign claims the credit was a mistake. ETA: You tube vids are bad practice. There’s plenty of material on this via google. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-been-lying-about-how-much-money-he-makes/757473/31 "2016-06-16T20:03:07Z")
I wonder if Trump, when calculating his (imaginary) net worth, actually adds up the value of all of the stuff that is branded with his name. For example, Trump International Hotel & Tower in Toronto - Trump has no ownership stake in the building whatsoever, he just gets an annual fee for his name. But I wonder if when he considers his net worth, he thinks “well that building in Toronto is worth $500 million - I’ll just add that to my net worth column”. Or does he just think “I don’t own that building, but my name on it is worth $250 million at least”, even though the facts say otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-been-lying-about-how-much-money-he-makes/757473/32 "2016-06-16T20:27:06Z")
Did Trump ever tell you about the time he owned (read: [held hostage](http://www.npr.org/2016/05/10/477041094/the-empire-state-building-and-the-art-of-trumps-deal)) the Empire State Building? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-been-lying-about-how-much-money-he-makes/757473/33 "2016-06-16T20:30:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > This is probably his least important lie since his campaign started. My reaction on reading the OP: “what hasn’t Trump been lying about?” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-been-lying-about-how-much-money-he-makes/757473/34 "2016-06-16T20:48:28Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > It seems to me that if you wanted see the Forbes article on Trump’s net worth you could easily find it. Perhaps you really want to teach a passive aggressive lesson on how you would like people to post on the internet. You sure seem to assume a lot. > [@running\_coach](#): > > [The Definitive Net Worth Of Donald Trump](http://www.forbes.com/donald-trump/#14fa2091790b)(Forbes) > [Just How Rich Is Donald Trump?](http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/just-how-rich-is-donald-trump) (The New Yorker) The Forbes article wanted me to turn of ad-block to access it (no thanks), but the Ney Yorker article is chock full of caveats like: > [@](#): > > Without any stock prices, tax returns, or company records to go on, any estimate of Trump’s true financial worth has to be based on educated guesswork. And just to be clear, I don’t expect this is a binary question-- that is, either Trump is wrong or the reports are wrong. More likely, they are all wrong. If, that is, there is even an object “right” answer when figuring the net worth of someone that rich. I wouldn’t believe Trump about anything, but that doesn’t make me automatically assume Forbes (or anyone else) is correct. Perhaps he’s counting the amount of money he could get people to pay him NOT to run for president. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-been-lying-about-how-much-money-he-makes/757473/35 "2016-06-16T20:57:20Z")
If it were to become clear that Trump actually is worth less than $1 billion–if he is a mere millionaire instead of a billionaire–that might be more likely to dismay his fans than any amount of racist talk or accusations of treason against the sitting President or rude remarks about the looks of prominent women or mockery of the disabled. His fans love that stuff; they _don’t_ love “a loser.” The Clinton team don’t seem likely to lower themselves by making use of Trump’s schoolyard-bully tactics, but if they did, they could do worse than countering his epithets against Hillary with “business failure Trump” or “bankruptcy king Trump” or “inept entrepreneur Trump.” ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-been-lying-about-how-much-money-he-makes/757473/36 "2016-06-16T21:20:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You sure seem to assume a lot. Assuming you can google four words seems pretty reasonable. In fact, not assuming that would be downright insulting to you, imho. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-been-lying-about-how-much-money-he-makes/757473/37 "2016-06-16T21:20:41Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Mark Cuban notes that he is splashing his brand on everything from hotels to cheap suits, which is a way of destroying the value of the brand - and something only a person in need of cash would do. > > Trump could very easily prove what his net worth really is. That he does not makes his words a bit suspect. (To put it mildly.) IMHO it is a lot like quantum physics. Until you measure his value is not fixed. And I do think that if Trump would measure his worth right now, it would collapse. 🙂 Bloomberg looked at the numbers Trump disclosed last year and concluded that Trump is more likely to have 2.9 Billion. [http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-07-28/here-s-our-tally-of-donald-trump-s-wealth](http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-07-28/here-s-our-tally-of-donald-trump-s-wealth) A lot of it is in real state, but Trump reported more than 3 billion in licensing fees. If we take Trump’s word (that is not worth much, really) a lot of his worth is based on companies using the right to his name. Using logic, one big reason that affects the value of those assets right now is that Trump is, as we speak, **ruining** the worth of that name and making it poisonous, to just a bit more than half of the American people and more around the world. He is likely to still be a billionaire, but I do think that he is deluding himself into thinking that he is worth the same as he was before becoming a candidate and started undermining his name. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-been-lying-about-how-much-money-he-makes/757473/38 "2016-06-16T21:32:57Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Did Trump ever tell you about the time he owned (read: [held hostage](http://www.npr.org/2016/05/10/477041094/the-empire-state-building-and-the-art-of-trumps-deal)) the Empire State Building? That’s nothing! I own the Brooklyn Bridge! Got the deed and everything! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-been-lying-about-how-much-money-he-makes/757473/39 "2016-06-16T21:47:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That’s nothing! I own the Brooklyn Bridge! Got the deed and everything! I’ll vouch for that, as I’m the one who sold it to him! I like the QM analogy. The more precisely you know his cash flow, the less precisely you know his net worth. And vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-been-lying-about-how-much-money-he-makes/757473/40 "2016-06-16T21:52:52Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > So either Trump has been collecting a tax credit he shouldn’t, or his income is in exotic forms that avoid taxes. As a slight hijack, I wonder if Al Capone had unusually short fingers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-been-lying-about-how-much-money-he-makes/757473.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-been-lying-about-how-much-money-he-makes/757473.md?page=3)